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 Post subject: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:45 pm 
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Seems like the 15-years later thing isn't as popular idea as I thought... So, I was was expressed a wish for a western game.

Okay, Attributes+Skills+Proficiencies are essential.

I'm thinking Reputation too, possibly pulling off from Michael's Seven Samurai.

There's one missing though. And I'm thinking Signature priority.. A is like.. excellent dual revolvers, etc, F is.. I dunno, white pants soaked in yellow stuff. :lol:

Maybe it's too similar to reputation, I'm not quite sure.

Any ideas? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:27 pm 
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higgins wrote:
So, I was was expressed a wish for a western game.


Cool! Black Scorpion Miniatures in the UK produce their "Tombstone" range of figurines set in the Wild West. I like them because they have the famous outlaws, but also plenty of ordinary townsfolk, native Americans, and Mexicans.

higgins wrote:
I'm thinking Reputation too, possibly pulling off from Michael's Seven Samurai.


Does this mean everyone has to play a gunslinger?

higgins wrote:
There's one missing though. And I'm thinking Signature priority.. A is like.. excellent dual revolvers, etc, F is.. I dunno, white pants soaked in yellow stuff. :lol:


Hmmm. I guess it depends what the games is going to be about. My first thought is that there could be an underlying theme of tragedy -- the lawlessness seeming to spiral ever out of control. As such there could be a Priority Pick covering how the individual reacts after the fight.

The A pick could be completely unaffected by the violence, death, and the potential for their own death. In fact they could be invigorated by it. The F pick though sinks into depression which they attempt to alleviate as the player sees fit -- alcohol, opium, carousing...

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:40 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
higgins wrote:
I'm thinking Reputation too, possibly pulling off from Michael's Seven Samurai.
Does this mean everyone has to play a gunslinger?
A good question. I'm thinking yes, as it supports the group activities very well and also gives a more definite focus to the game. However, general fame/infamy would work just as well for a more loose game.

higgins wrote:
Hmmm. I guess it depends what the games is going to be about.
I'm trying to get my one-shot group on the disposable setting idea. I thought to simply have them propose settings and then gradually asking more details about what they want to see. The Cardinal's Guards was the 1st game, this is the 2nd. Now, my only guideline so far is that it's a western game involving black people and a train. :mrgreen: They are quite stingy with proposing ideas.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
My first thought is that there could be an underlying theme of tragedy -- the lawlessness seeming to spiral ever out of control. As such there could be a Priority Pick covering how the individual reacts after the fight.

The A pick could be completely unaffected by the violence, death, and the potential for their own death. In fact they could be invigorated by it. The F pick though sinks into depression which they attempt to alleviate as the player sees fit -- alcohol, opium, carousing...
Hm, that's an interesting one, yet... How can we make it not coming off as fear checks in Ravenloft? In case you don't know what I mean, it's like... you see a zombie, then roll your will save, you failed, now you have -2 as your character is scared. I mean, how to make it something that is beyond a compulsion forced by the game mechanics?

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:38 am 
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higgins wrote:
I'm thinking yes, as it supports the group activities very well and also gives a more definite focus to the game. However, general fame/infamy would work just as well for a more loose game.


Have you seen Deadwood, the TV series? I like the idea that in the Wild West everyone who is going to impact the story has a reputation, for good or ill. The reputation doesn't necessarily relate to combat capability -- its more about determination to get your own way, just how far you will go to do that. Ruthlessness in men, perhaps an iron will in women.

higgins wrote:
I'm trying to get my one-shot group on the disposable setting idea. I thought to simply have them propose settings and then gradually asking more details about what they want to see. The Cardinal's Guards was the 1st game, this is the 2nd. Now, my only guideline so far is that it's a western game involving black people and a train. :mrgreen: They are quite stingy with proposing ideas.


Golly, you're not wrong there. Is it because they see this as your (referee's) job?

Ian.Plumb wrote:
My first thought is that there could be an underlying theme of tragedy -- the lawlessness seeming to spiral ever out of control. As such there could be a Priority Pick covering how the individual reacts after the fight.

The A pick could be completely unaffected by the violence, death, and the potential for their own death. In fact they could be invigorated by it. The F pick though sinks into depression which they attempt to alleviate as the player sees fit -- alcohol, opium, carousing...


higgins wrote:
Hm, that's an interesting one, yet... How can we make it not coming off as fear checks in Ravenloft? In case you don't know what I mean, it's like... you see a zombie, then roll your will save, you failed, now you have -2 as your character is scared. I mean, how to make it something that is beyond a compulsion forced by the game mechanics?


If I were doing this I wouldn't make it a mechanic. Your players are all immersionists; character is everything. If this is a set facet of their character then I'd say they will interpret it and play it as they see fit.

I wouldn't expect the F pick to get into a fight and then run off to the nearest opium den, leaving the others PCs to continue the scenario. Rather I would expect the player to indicate at some point in the scenario, perhaps after a particularly brutal fight or after the loss of a companion, that their character has reached a crisis point. Then the referee would formulate an appropriate scene.

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:10 am 
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Good to see that you are getting sold on the disposable-setting-idea yourself, higgins. :)

For me, the modern Western is always somehow about violence and the pull of violence and its eroding force, how it destroys communities and people and how it still exudes a siren’s call. It seems such an easy solution, after all…

I can therfore envisage a priority that governs both how prone somebody is to violent solutions and also how good he is at violence – both rolled into one, not because there are no people prone to violence and actually bad at it, but because coupling this supports the theme as I see it.

Some kind of Priority that couples a certain degree of something like the Bloodlust Flaw with an SA-like dice bonus for combat if the character does not hold back, linked to a general roleplaying-guideline. The F-Pick is never forced into violence but gets a slight penalty on dice if he does resort to it after all, and the A-Pick will almost always be forced to solve his problems violently – but, boy, will he be good at it.

Some kind of exploration whether violence really can be the solution, and if it can be, at what cost.

Oh, and by the way:

Merry Christmas to you, boys!

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:40 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Have you seen Deadwood, the TV series?
Oh man, I can't believe I forgot Deadwood when compiling my movie-list! It has even Brad Dourif in it! Thanks a bunch!

Ian.Plumb wrote:
I like the idea that in the Wild West everyone who is going to impact the story has a reputation, for good or ill. The reputation doesn't necessarily relate to combat capability -- its more about determination to get your own way, just how far you will go to do that. Ruthlessness in men, perhaps an iron will in women.
Yes! That's exactly what I thought. It can be more than martial.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Golly, you're not wrong there. Is it because they see this as your (referee's) job?
Yes, it was like... Dude, I suggested the theme already, now... do your thing. :lol:

Ian.Plumb wrote:
If I were doing this I wouldn't make it a mechanic. Your players are all immersionists; character is everything. If this is a set facet of their character then I'd say they will interpret it and play it as they see fit.
Well, my one-shot group isn't my regular group. Some of them have been in my regular group in the past, some haven't. So, that assumption doesn't really work. In one-shots, there isn't really time for any deep immersion and that kind of non-mechanical thing would most likely end up as dump pick. So, if I introduced a Persecution priority, black people being F, my game would sure as hell end up something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTIklFsMjjU :lol:

Grettir wrote:
Good to see that you are getting sold on the disposable-setting-idea yourself, higgins. :)
I have a bunch of friends I rarely see, so, this disposable stuff should fit like a glove for the one-shots when we actually meet.

Grettir wrote:
For me, the modern Western is always somehow about violence and the pull of violence and its eroding force, how it destroys communities and people and how it still exudes a siren’s call. It seems such an easy solution, after all…

I can therfore envisage a priority that governs both how prone somebody is to violent solutions and also how good he is at violence – both rolled into one, not because there are no people prone to violence and actually bad at it, but because coupling this supports the theme as I see it.
I like it! I also see it as a step to solve the one thing that bothers me about Proficiencies. I mean, the minute you have anything "truly exotic" in your hands, speaking in the martial terms of medieval to renaissance Europe... whips, lassos etc... you must have a separate proficiency on something that is basically just colour. That's why I was so psyched about general combat skills (melee&ranged) when we discussed the skill packets.

So, maybe have a priority that simply sets your CP/MP... and one can disbalance them... Like 6/6 could be 8/4, etc. For the western game, these can be coupled with flaws just like Michael suggested.

As an aside, I thought to test these new suggested range rules for EoS. Just need to write up some stats for the weapons.

Grettir wrote:
Some kind of exploration whether violence really can be the solution, and if it can be, at what cost.
An excellent idea, though right off the bat, being new with this themed stuff, I'm not quite sure how to execute it.

Grettir wrote:
Merry Christmas to you, boys!
Happy holidays to everyone! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:40 am 
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higgins wrote:
Oh man, I can't believe I forgot Deadwood when compiling my movie-list! It has even Brad Dourif in it!

Hm. A television series with friggin’ Brad Dourif in it? I’ll have to try get a look at this.

higgins wrote:
So, maybe have a priority that simply sets your CP/MP... and one can disbalance them... Like 6/6 could be 8/4, etc. For the western game, these can be coupled with flaws just like Michael suggested.

I quite like this approach. With all PCs being gunslingers, you might not even have a Proficiency Pick, just the (same) number of Proficiency points to split between Proficiencies for each and every PC. Their real fighting skill is covered by the Killer Instinct Priority. F might be –3 dice and no degree of Bloodlust, E +/- 0 dice and a slight degree of Bloodlust, and so on, until, A, which could be about +12 dice, but insane degrees of Bloodlust.

And I recommend de-coupling the Bloodlust-check from attributes. The number of dice to be rolled and the TN to avoid a reaction with deadly violence should be part of the Pick description.

higgins wrote:
An excellent idea, though right off the bat, being new with this themed stuff, I'm not quite sure how to execute it.

I actually think it should be real easy to pull off with this setting. The Western is usually suffused in violence, and its brother, lawlessness, as suggested by Ian. If every PC is has decent combat skills and basically some degree of Bloodlust, and if the guys who are really good at no-holds-barred violence are those who feel the (game-mechanical and role-playing) pull to violence the strongest, you’re already halfway there. Opposition will come their way, and those who will be the most forced to deal with it violently will actually be the best at doing so; seems like a win-win situation. But sooner or later, their own violence is pratically bound to hurt/destroy something they themselves value. When these isues crop up, every single player will find out whether the violence and the lawlessness of his character has actually availed him or not. Will he die in the dust with a bullet in his guts? Will he find that his own smoking sixshooters have in the end hurt himself the most? Or can he actually pull it off to to ride into the sunset a triumphant bastard?

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:08 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
A television series with friggin’ Brad Dourif in it? I’ll have to try get a look at this.
That's exactly what I thought! :ugeek: Yet not only that, but it's a HBO series... meaning the same company that has produced Oz, The Sopranos, Carnivàle, Rome... and the one who will be doing A Song of Ice and Fire. :)

On the system, I kept my Cardinal's Guards attributes+skills and then...

Fighting Pools*
A - 8/8
B - 6/6
C - 4/4
D - 4
E - 0

* There are no Proficiencies. The numbers represent base CP and MP -- that means without Reflex or Aim added. In case of Priorites A, B & C one can add to one of the pools by subtracting from the other, but only at character creation and this is permanent. With A you can go +3/–3, B can go +2/–2 and C can go only +1/–1. With D you must choose whether that number represents your base CP or MP. Maneuvers are based on the weapon held. For a weapon which is mostly colour in the setting (lasso & whip for cowboys, tomahawk throwing for indians) use your highest base pool. Reasonable, but awkward weapons (whip for indians, tomahawk throwing for cowboys) use the lowest base pool. Completely inappropriate weapons (knightly lance, katana, shuriken, etc) have base CP/MP of 0.

Reputation
A: Admired – The deeds of the character have been most generous or helpful and also well-publicized. Most lawmen/wanderers know the character’s name and deeds and many recognize him on sight. Many commoners know the character’s name and deeds and some recognize him on sight. Upon recognition, the difficulty for social interaction with ordinary townsfolk is at –1, for autority figures and like-minded people at –2.
B: Liked – The deeds of the character have been honest or fair and also well-publicized. Many lawmen/wanderers know the character’s name and deeds and some recognize him on sight. Some commoners know the character’s name and deeds. Upon recognition, the difficulty for social interaction with autority figures and like-minded people is at –1.
C: Blank Page – Nobody connects anything special with the character.
D: Despised – The deeds of the character have been unusually outrageous and also well-publicized. Many lawmen/wanderers know the character’s name and deeds and some recognize him on sight. Some commoners know the character’s name and deeds. Upon recognition, the difficulty for friendly social interaction with ordinary townsfolk is at +1, for autority figures and different-minded people at +2.
F: Infamous – The deeds of the character have been most heinous and also well-publicized. Most lawmen/wanderers and many commoners know the character’s name and deeds and most recognize him on sight. Most commoners know the character’s name and deeds and many recognize him on sight. Upon recognition, the difficulty for friendly social interaction with ordinary townsfolk is at +2, for autority figures and different-minded people at +3.

I'm still thinking how to actually solve the Bloodlust.

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:17 pm 
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I know, way off topic but...

higgins wrote:
That's exactly what I thought! :ugeek: Yet not only that, but it's a HBO series... meaning the same company that has produced Oz, The Sopranos, Carnivàle, Rome... and the one who will be doing A Song of Ice and Fire. :)


To which I would add The Wire, which my wife and I are enjoying immensely at the moment on DVD. Nevertheless, there's something odd about the system when the best television series to come out of the US are produced by HBO -- a company that started out as a niche market producer of material for cable television.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Hi all,

Higgings, a few points to consider,

1) Cowboys used Lasso's not Whips.
2) Whips were used by freighters.
3) Some Indian tribes, Commanche for one, used a hunting lance, usulaay on bison.
4) Can characters specialise in weapon types eg pistols, rifles or bows for MP, or about non cultural weapons.

What happens if an Indian picks up a sabre, with which they have minimal familarity, at best.

Simon Burling

PS Deadwood is a pretty good series, apart from emphasing speed over nerve for the legendary gun-fighter.


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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:45 pm 
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simon burling wrote:
1) Cowboys used Lasso's not Whips.
2) Whips were used by freighters.
Yes, of course. I sort of used "cowboy" as an umbrella term for the action-focused non-indian characters. :)

simon burling wrote:
3) Some Indian tribes, Commanche for one, used a hunting lance, usulaay on bison.
I'm sure they used all kinds of spears, but I'd totally want to discourage any "oh, this nonsense-for-the-setting weapon has so good stats and I have a generic fighting skill, so, I'm having one made" behaviour. No tourney lances in my western game, please. Not even if you stumble upon a museum that actually has one.

simon burling wrote:
4) Can characters specialise in weapon types eg pistols, rifles or bows for MP, or about non cultural weapons.
It would feel right, but would it make sense in such an abstract environment? Maybe have simply a Signature weapon, be it tomahawk, a brace of revolvers, fists, etc, and you get +2CP whenever you use it?

simon burling wrote:
What happens if an Indian picks up a sabre, with which they have minimal familarity, at best.
As said, uses the lowest base pool. Let's bring an example -- Both Tall Snake and Black Beaver have picked B and min-maxed.

Tall Snake, CP 8 & MP 4:
- tomahawk in melee = base CP 8
- tomahawk in ranged = base MP 8 (this is a cinematic move and IMO mainly colour! use best pool)
- throwing knives = base MP 4
- bow = base MP 4
- firearms = base MP 4
- sabre = base CP 4 (not familiar, uses the worse pool)
- shuriken = base MP 0 (inappropriate weapon)

Black Beaver, CP 4 & MP 8:
- tomahawk in melee = base CP 4
- tomahawk in ranged = base MP 8 (cinematic! uses the best pool, which is the same as his regular pool)
- throwing knives = base MP 8
- bow = base MP 8
- firearms = base MP 8
- sabre = base CP 4 (not familiar, uses the worse pool, which is the same as his regular pool)
- shuriken = base MP 0 (inappropriate weapon)

simon burling wrote:
PS Deadwood is a pretty good series, apart from emphasing speed over nerve for the legendary gun-fighter.
Any suggestions for a nerve-based fast draw mechanics? :)

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:11 am 
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simon burling wrote:
PS Deadwood is a pretty good series, apart from emphasing speed over nerve for the legendary gun-fighter.
higgins wrote:
Any suggestions for a nerve-based fast draw mechanics? :)

I am reminded of Unforgiven, where it is also emphasized that speed doesn't matter, as it is the guy not getting rattled from being under fire and keeping his cool who will walk away from the shootout. As demonstrated by Clint Eastwood's character.

Personally, for a purely Western game, I'd simply introduce a rule that everybody is shaken when being fired at, and thus hasty in drawing and shooting. In effect, this is a hefty penalty to the MP whenever you shoot in circumstances where you are at risk of being shot at yourself. And then I'd use the Killer Instinct Priority to reduce this penalty and even turn it into a hefty bonus for some guys -- though of course coupled to a degree of real habitual instinct to kill. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:16 am 
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Well, the quick-shot is basically a shot with no Aim added. Maybe something like this:

Killer Instinct - cost for buying initiative / instinct dice
A - 0/4
B - 1/3
C - 2/2
D - 3/1
E - 4/0

Instinct dice act as bonus dice on the reflex roll in case you buy initiative (and NOT when it's bought FROM you). That way, it is always beneficial to wait for the other to draw first, as the one who pulls the gun second, gets a bonus on his reflex roll, thus boosting the chance of actually firing first. In case it's needed to determine who fires first, roll WP+Instinct dice vs. TN6 and compare successes, losing party drawing first.

In case of irritation, roll your Instinct dice vs. TN6, success means that at least some violence must be used in resolving the scene.

What I really like about it, is that your high MP doesn't mean squat if your instinct sucks. Sure, you can be the best buffalo hunter, but not the best gunslinger too... unless you also have the Instinct.

Maybe limit the new buying initiative costs for firefights only? Or even duels only? Otherwise if would break all melee fights.

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:10 am 
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higgins wrote:
Killer Instinct - cost for buying initiative / instinct dice
A - 0/4
B - 1/3
C - 2/2
D - 3/1
E - 4/0

My own (killer) instinct would be to add even more punch to this, to make the Killer Instinct Priority at least 50% more powerful, maybe 100% -- so that in a firefight (or some bowie knife stickin'), Killer Instinct is at least as important as Proficiency, probably even more important. And then I'd couple it to an ever increasing degree of Bloodlust. In the Western genre, the meek ain't gonna inherit the earth -- but they might well reap what they sow.

But then that's my personal take on the genre.

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 Post subject: Re: Priorities for a Western Game
PostPosted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Though it's probably true that my propositions works best in quick draw duels and less well all over the board, I tried to put the "lashing out violently" thing in there too. I'd be happy to hear the suggestions though. :)

What did you think of the generic fighting pools, btw?

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