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 Post subject: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 4:15 pm 
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We can use this thread to dicuss all matters pertaining to religion on Weyrth, both in general terms and specifically for certain religions. For one, I will start out with a problem of Xanarism I do not want to decide alone.

I am currently drawing up the inner workings of the Imperial government, and as the Imperial Church constitutes a third of this governments, there is one thing that needs to be determined:

Do we want to have a single head of the Church of Xanar, like Catholicism’s Pope, or do we rather go for a model similar to late antiquity and the very early middle ages, with a few Patriarchs with equal rights and no central leadershipto the Church besides a slightly increased dignity for the Patriarch of Xanarium?

What do you think would work better?

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 5:51 pm 
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I like the idea of a central pope, only for its familiarity to newer players.

However, I think that (as the book says) leaving the church with 3 heads would be more interesting and allow for tension.

If any of the 3 heads decide to work against the others for example.

Also, I believe that countries outside the seat would have individuals of great religious power, if only because of their distance to the central church.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:41 pm 
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I have a few points from Taveruun's perspective:

The issue of revenue leaving the country and flowing to Xanaria is important to maintain.

It would be my preference that the church in Xanaria remains ultimately responsible for the determination of doctrine and the conducting of heresy trials as the court of final appeal.

It is handy if the monastic orders continue to hold their authority directly from the head(s) of the church in Xanar rather than through an authority in Taveruun (as the regular priesthood does).

So I don't mind whether we have an individuals, a number of individuals, or a council at the top of the church tree as long as the top of the tree is in Xanar. Is that workable?

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:02 pm 
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In this matter I bow happily to the wishes of the two of you. I will thus create the Imperial Church with a single, central leadership located in the Seat of the Xanarian Empire.

By once again flipping through the core book, I was unable to find anything about a triumvirate leading the Church. The only reference as to its leadership comes from p. 188, where it is stated that it is “led by the Xanarth, or high priest of the Church”; could you please point me to the reference to the three leaders, stuh42l? But even without it, I would be happy to oblige you with a ruling triumvirate, if you would like to have one.

By the way, I will change the official title of said high priest from Xanarth to Xanarch; the syllable “arch” derives from Ancient Greek and was also used in Latin and is therefore much more fitting for the Roman theme of Xanarium. If one of youis at odds with this, we can always assume that Xanarth is a mangled but common form of Xanarch.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:07 pm 
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In Taveruun I use the French terms for Archbishop and Abbot downwards. If a cardinal visited I'd use the French term unless it was in a quoted speech, in which case I'd use the formal vulgate term I guess. So Xanarch is fine by me.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:21 pm 
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Fine. Than I will mirror the Catholic church’s hierarchy of bishop and archbishop, with the Latin terms of episcopus and archepiscopus; this should go perfect with éveque and archéveque in the language of Taveruun.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:12 pm 
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Quote:
By once again flipping through the core book, I was unable to find anything about a triumvirate leading the Church. The only reference as to its leadership comes from p. 188, where it is stated that it is “led by the Xanarth, or high priest of the Church”; could you please point me to the reference to the three leaders, stuh42l? But even without it, I would be happy to oblige you with a ruling triumvirate, if you would like to have one.


I was mistaken in my reading, but making me go and check did reveal this.

On page 173, under the Seats own section, it states, "It is thought that the church (or rather the Xanarth, its highest priest) holds more power than the emperor-outside of the seat's immediate borders that is certainly true."

So it would seem the church has a central, high priest.

What I was mistakenly refering to was the bit about the senate representing the eye, the hand being represented by the courts, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:21 pm 
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From the “Technology”-thread:

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Regarding the Weyrth-equivalent of the middle-east. I like the idea that they have a more religiously-tolerant society, and through that take a moral high-ground over the European-equivalents and their intolerant religious views. This underlying philosophy of acceptance of other's views in turn makes for a more creative society, a more inventive society -- justifying alignment with the historical view.


I don’t care wether Weyrth is tolerant or intolerant, both could work. But if we go for tolerance, we needed to somehow explain the drawn out Holy War initiated by the Xanarian Empire, and to explain away residual hatred from this war; maybe the close contact furthered understanding? In Europe, the eastern European nations like Byzantium and later also the kingdoms of Outremer were much more tolerant of Muslims like Germans or Englishmen – the former had come to know and respect their enemies. We could emphasize this fact for Weyrth: First there’s hatred – than there is a Holy War – the Holy War grinds to a halt – Followers of the Prophet and Xanarians are entrenched for over a century – close contact leads to enlightenment and tolerance. These two religions learned to see what they have in common, not what divides them. For them, the real "Evil" in a theological way are the superstitious heathen followers of Paganism - and of course sorcerers.

How about it?

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:23 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
From the “Technology”-thread:

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Regarding the Weyrth-equivalent of the middle-east. I like the idea that they have a more religiously-tolerant society, and through that take a moral high-ground over the European-equivalents and their intolerant religious views. This underlying philosophy of acceptance of other's views in turn makes for a more creative society, a more inventive society -- justifying alignment with the historical view.


I don’t care whether Weyrth is tolerant or intolerant, both could work...


Uh... Wrong Topic?


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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:02 am 
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Grettir wrote:
I don’t care wether Weyrth is tolerant or intolerant...How about it?


While I definately like the idea of a somwhat tolerant Weyrth, I also remember reading in the CR that there was a call among the 7VotP for those willing to fight to do so -- a jihad -- at about the suggested campaign start. This seems to suggest certain factions within the church still holding to old hatred, and it is likely there are similar factions in 3GBO. Perhaps there was a generation of young troops sent to the front just in time to stand at attention during the peace ceremony. I see the seed for a number of roving bands of soldiers-turned-mercenaries along where the warzones had been, men craving the glory their nations had failed to provide. Perhaps these bands of marauders and bandits are sewing the seeds of another war, or maybe giving the two groups another reason to band together.

Just a few ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:51 am 
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Hector wrote:
Uh... Wrong Topic?


Religious tolerance a wrong topic in the „Religion“-thread? How so?

Squeejee wrote:
While I definately like the idea of a somwhat tolerant Weyrth, …


Reconsidering, I get more and more the idea that too much of religious tolerance is maybe not conductive to the setting. For once, there is the problem of reconciliating the tolerance with facts from the core book – the Xanarians’ Holy War and the Vowers’ Jihad. But more importantly there is the impact on SAs. Intolerance has the somewhat higher potential for stronger SAs, both for people resenting the other faith and for those resenting this very intolerance.

Ian, if you would like to have more tolerance, why not limit it largely to your own Taveruun? As Taveruun lies adjactent to the “Middle East” and has a long history of close contact with it, it might have come to accept and respect the foreign faith. Familiarity need not always breed contempt, it can also breed understanding and respect. Spinning this thought further, we have already hinted at Taveruun having a history of being a hub of commerce between West and East, even the Far East, via ships from Weyrth’s farthest reaches sailing up the Saphire Bay. We could easily tie these facts in with Taveruun’s novel, heretic stance on sorcery. Exposed to foreign ideas throughout much of its history, maybe Taveruun has become an enlightened and tolerant country.

Squeejee wrote:
…, I also remember reading in the CR that there was a call among the 7VotP for those willing to fight to do so -- a jihad -- at about the suggested campaign start.


If we stay with the religious tolerance, we could tie in the call for a Jihad as a countermovement by those appalled by the tolerance having recently taken hold. We could portray this analogous to what is currently going in many Middle Eastern countries, a resurgence of fundamentalism, with the added benefit that adventures set before this background could have an added deeper meaning for those who wish to see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:16 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Regarding the Weyrth-equivalent of the middle-east. I like the idea that they have a more religiously-tolerant society, and through that take a moral high-ground over the European-equivalents and their intolerant religious views. This underlying philosophy of acceptance of other's views in turn makes for a more creative society, a more inventive society -- justifying alignment with the historical view.


Grettir wrote:
I don’t care wether Weyrth is tolerant or intolerant, both could work...


No no no no no! :)

I am suggesting that the Middle-Eastern-equivalents are more religiously-tolerant than the European-equivalents. Not that they are religiously tolerant. Think pre-crusade Jerusalem as opposed to the crusaders trying to capture Jerusalem. So on the one hand you have a state religion that accepts the presence of non-believers while the other does not.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:42 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
No no no no no! :)

I am suggesting that the Middle-Eastern-equivalents are more religiously-tolerant than the European-equivalents. Not that they are religiously tolerant.


Oops, my bad. You were quite clear, but somehow I misunderstood you.

Now making the Middle East of Weyrth more tolerant than the West might work well. This reminds me of the stance of Mohammed on foreign religions, which in theory is still the official view of Islam today: The Islam does differentiate between two kinds of foreign religions: Those “of the Book”, and all others. Those “of the Book” were all montheistic religions with books of revelations of their own and thus related to Islam. This pertained to Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrism. These religions are viewed as highly developed and, even though of course mistaken, ethically and philosophically worthy. Their adherents were not persecuted, they were even allowed their own worship, they only had to pay a special kind of tax (you might call it “protection money”). All other religions, among them Buddhism and Hinduism and also all kinds of what might be termed paganism, were not afforded the same degree of protection and were explicitly forbidden.

We might easily assume the same stance for the Vows of the Prophet, only with a stronger emphasis. This could then be used to describe them as a very open-minded society which adopts ideas from both East and West. Together with their own inventions, this might make for an advanced society.

Which takes us right back to the technology thread…

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:11 pm 
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Perfect!

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 Post subject: Re: Concerning religion…
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:19 pm 
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I'd assumed wrong topic, because that post was quoting and answering a post from the technology threat. If I assumed wrong, then I should probably have kept my mouth shut, and my bad.


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