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 Post subject: Dardanet, Helena and Otarmarluk
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:26 am 
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I am confused about entries in the Core about these nations fighting. I think perhaps the map went through a revision and Taveruun was created because Otarmarluk is fighting on the borders of Helena and Dardanet (although they don't share borders).

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 Post subject: Re: Dardanet, Helena and Otarmarluk
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:02 pm 
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I'd say we could do with a downsized Taveruun. I'd suggest moving the city of Livingstone a bit to the west and to give the east of current Taveruun to Otamarluk. But we especially need to hear Ian on that.

In any case, I think that Otamarluk desperately needs more "bang", i.e. more land, if it really is to be the powerful proponent of the Seven Vows. For that same reason, I'd also like to see northern Svarastra given to Otamarluk.

And we could even give a bit of southwestern Taveruun to Dardanet. Maybe Otamarluk did after the dissolution of the Xanarian Empire spread to encompass what is now southern Taveruun; it did thus border Dardanet, and Dardanet was called upon to defend the West. Southern Taveruun may have been re-acquired from Otarmarlukan occupation by Taveruun rather recently. But we would have to take care not to make the area a war theatre in the all-too-recent past, as I think that Ian wants to make Taveruun a cosmopolitan place open to Otamarlukan ideas and culture and not still almost at war with it.

So, Ian, what do you think?

Btw, personally I think we should disregard MRB's reference to war between Otarmarluk and Helena. Not only is Taveruun in the way, it also doesn't mesh too well with Valthalion's vision of Helena, and it outright clashes with Helena having abandoned the Imperial Faith; somebdy beset by a religious enemy doesn't usually abandon his faith in favour of a third faith but is rathered bolstered in the tenacity of his own believes.

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 Post subject: Re: Dardanet, Helena and Otarmarluk
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:53 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
I'd say we could do with a downsized Taveruun. I'd suggest moving the city of Livingstone a bit to the west and to give the east of current Taveruun to Otamarluk. But we especially need to hear Ian on that.


It makes sense to me that Taveruun is losing territory to Otamarluk. I see the eastern part of Taveruun is an Outremer, with territory changing hands regularly. That territory I see as being geographically different to that of the west of Taveruun, so that there is a distinction in the hearts and minds of the people between west and east.

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 Post subject: Re: Dardanet, Helena and Otarmarluk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:25 am 
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Grettir wrote:
I'd say we could do with a downsized Taveruun. I'd suggest moving the city of Livingstone a bit to the west and to give the east of current Taveruun to Otamarluk. But we especially need to hear Ian on that.

Honestly, I think if anything we should retain from the MRB, especially to make it easier for people to use the material it is the map and the boundaries on it. To me that is Canon.

Grettir wrote:
In any case, I think that Otamarluk desperately needs more "bang", i.e. more land, if it really is to be the powerful proponent of the Seven Vows. For that same reason, I'd also like to see northern Svarastra given to Otamarluk.


Rather than change the political boundaries, I think we could use T'zaul as a client kingdom of Otamarluk. Kudara could be used as well and become a kind of Indonesia. Although Kudara seems like India to me geographically and that opens all sorts of interesting possibilities. Shiragi seems a more Indonesia type place. But that could work as well.


Kudara could be a bastion of another paganism of a myriad of gods/spirits and a hold out in the jungle against Otamarluk expansionism.

I have always thought of T'zaul as a kind of Persian/Parthian/Iranian, maybe Zoastrian, place.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
It makes sense to me that Taveruun is losing territory to Otamarluk. I see the eastern part of Taveruun is an Outremer, with territory changing hands regularly. That territory I see as being geographically different to that of the west of Taveruun, so that there is a distinction in the hearts and minds of the people between west and east.


An Outremer works (although it's not over the sea :lol: ) I had envisaged disputed territory. Ostensibly part of Taveruun, but Otamarluk influence is heavy and raids are very frequent. Perhaps islands of calm in place of fortification, but open spaces likely to be attacked by Otamarluk cavalry. Farming nigh on impossible.

But of course Ian, it's your call.

Grettir wrote:
Btw, personally I think we should disregard MRB's reference to war between Otarmarluk and Helena. Not only is Taveruun in the way, it also doesn't mesh too well with Valthalion's vision of Helena, and it outright clashes with Helena having abandoned the Imperial Faith; somebdy beset by a religious enemy doesn't usually abandon his faith in favour of a third faith but is rathered bolstered in the tenacity of his own believes.


I agree with this although I would like some contact with Otarmaluk, because I'd like justification for eastern style cavalry for the Helenic army Cataphracts and toxohippeis (Bow armed cavalry). 8-) I can rationalise this by being part of the empire and fighting as part of the Imperial campaigns.

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 Post subject: Re: Dardanet, Helena and Otarmarluk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:29 am 
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Grettir wrote:
Btw, personally I think we should disregard MRB's reference to war between Otarmarluk and Helena. Not only is Taveruun in the way, it also doesn't mesh too well with Valthalion's vision of Helena, and it outright clashes with Helena having abandoned the Imperial Faith; somebdy beset by a religious enemy doesn't usually abandon his faith in favour of a third faith but is rathered bolstered in the tenacity of his own believes.


Valthalion wrote:
I agree with this although I would like some contact with Otarmaluk, because I'd like justification for eastern style cavalry for the Helenic army Cataphracts and toxohippeis (Bow armed cavalry). 8-) I can rationalise this by being part of the empire and fighting as part of the Imperial campaigns.


Hellenic mercenaries operating for extended periods in the east, returning with new tactics and capability? I'm seeing a famous fighting retreat... ;)

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Dardanet, Helena and Otarmarluk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:38 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:

Valthalion wrote:
I agree with this although I would like some contact with Otarmaluk, because I'd like justification for eastern style cavalry for the Helenic army Cataphracts and toxohippeis (Bow armed cavalry). 8-) I can rationalise this by being part of the empire and fighting as part of the Imperial campaigns.


Hellenic mercenaries operating for extended periods in the east, returning with new tactics and capability? I'm seeing a famous fighting retreat... ;)



Love it. :D

Thalassa Thalassa The Sea! The Sea!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Dardanet, Helena and Otarmarluk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:26 am 
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Valthalion wrote:
Honestly, I think if anything we should retain from the MRB, especially to make it easier for people to use the material it is the map and the boundaries on it. To me that is Canon.

Yes, you are right. Though I would not shrink back from minor alterations.

Valthalion wrote:
Rather than change the political boundaries, I think we could use T'zaul as a client kingdom of Otamarluk. Kudara could be used as well and become a kind of Indonesia. Although Kudara seems like India to me geographically and that opens all sorts of interesting possibilities.

Personally, I’d be eager to go for this. T’Zaul would be good as a vassal of Otamarluk, and even parts of Kudara could be under its influence, the way northwestern India was under Muslim influence. Otamarluk’s power could well be a missionary one, with increasing numbers of faithful in many of the southern and eastern countries, sympathisers with the cause of Otamarluk.

Valthalion wrote:
Kudara could be a bastion of another paganism of a myriad of gods/spirits and a hold out in the jungle against Otamarluk expansionism.

Ties in nicely with my idea of a Kudara torn between traditional “Hinduism” and the newcomer “Islam”. But I think we should leave specifcs we don’t absolutely need to ascertain right now to any prospective developer of Kudara.

Valthalion wrote:
I have always thought of T'zaul as a kind of Persian/Parthian/Iranian, maybe Zoastrian, place.

That rocks! I’m a total sucker for the Sasanids!

Ian.Plumb wrote:
It makes sense to me that Taveruun is losing territory to Otamarluk. I see the eastern part of Taveruun is an Outremer, with territory changing hands regularly. That territory I see as being geographically different to that of the west of Taveruun, so that there is a distinction in the hearts and minds of the people between west and east.
Valthalion wrote:
I would like some contact with Otarmaluk, because I'd like justification for eastern style cavalry for the Helenic army Cataphracts and toxohippeis (Bow armed cavalry). 8-) I can rationalise this by being part of the empire and fighting as part of the Imperial campaigns.

Hm, how do you like this:

Maybe two centuries ago, at the time of the dissolution of the Xanarian Empire or immediately after it, Taveruun was for a short time overrun by Otamarluk, or at least threatened to be overrun. It was first and foremost Dardanet that came to Taveruun’s aid, and the Otamarluks were pushed back.

Later, when Helena was already harping back to its days of glory, many Helenans recalled, often a bit romantically, how their ancestors once stood against an evil eastern empire – and right now, their neighbours in Taveruun were still fighting an intermittent border war against just such an “evil eastern empire”. A romantic kind of crusader spirit spread throughout Helena, and Helenan mercenaries flocked east to fight Otamarluk. Where they learned of the eastern horseman tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: Dardanet, Helena and Otarmarluk
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:52 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
Maybe two centuries ago, at the time of the dissolution of the Xanarian Empire or immediately after it, Taveruun was for a short time overrun by Otamarluk, or at least threatened to be overrun. It was first and foremost Dardanet that came to Taveruun’s aid, and the Otamarluks were pushed back.

Later, when Helena was already harping back to its days of glory, many Helenans recalled, often a bit romantically, how their ancestors once stood against an evil eastern empire – and right now, their neighbours in Taveruun were still fighting an intermittent border war against just such an “evil eastern empire”. A romantic kind of crusader spirit spread throughout Helena, and Helenan mercenaries flocked east to fight Otamarluk. Where they learned of the eastern horseman tactics.


This is a thumbs up from me. I like the idea of a large, disputed border area where the locals on both sides are coming to terms with a "practical tolerance" for their opponents while outsiders arrive in waves with thoughts of rescue and religious zeal. Sometimes these outsiders are most welcome as there is indeed a threat. Other times their arrival threatens to break a delicate peace. Other times they are despised, as territory that hasn't changed hands in a generation is given a new master -- when the old master was much loved in spite of being an infidel.

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 Post subject: Re: Dardanet, Helena and Otarmarluk
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:52 am 
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Grettir wrote:
Valthalion wrote:
Rather than change the political boundaries, I think we could use T'zaul as a client kingdom of Otamarluk. Kudara could be used as well and become a kind of Indonesia. Although Kudara seems like India to me geographically and that opens all sorts of interesting possibilities.

Personally, I’d be eager to go for this. T’Zaul would be good as a vassal of Otamarluk, and even parts of Kudara could be under its influence, the way northwestern India was under Muslim influence. Otamarluk’s power could well be a missionary one, with increasing numbers of faithful in many of the southern and eastern countries, sympathisers with the cause of Otamarluk.

Valthalion wrote:
Kudara could be a bastion of another paganism of a myriad of gods/spirits and a hold out in the jungle against Otamarluk expansionism.

Ties in nicely with my idea of a Kudara torn between traditional “Hinduism” and the newcomer “Islam”. But I think we should leave specifcs we don’t absolutely need to ascertain right now to any prospective developer of Kudara.

Valthalion wrote:
I have always thought of T'zaul as a kind of Persian/Parthian/Iranian, maybe Zoastrian, place.

That rocks! I’m a total sucker for the Sasanids!


One of the reasons I'm really enjoying this, is because I've played Medieval Europe to death. I love the idea of a more "Eastern" type of warfare. (But not Far Eastern Samurai) Assyrian's, Persians, Parthians, Sassanids, Alans, Bactrian's, Indians. If we go far enough east I'll be able to justify Elephants!!! 8-)

Grettir wrote:

Valthalion wrote:
I would like some contact with Otarmaluk, because I'd like justification for eastern style cavalry for the Helenic army Cataphracts and toxohippeis (Bow armed cavalry). 8-) I can rationalise this by being part of the empire and fighting as part of the Imperial campaigns.

Hm, how do you like this:

Maybe two centuries ago, at the time of the dissolution of the Xanarian Empire or immediately after it, Taveruun was for a short time overrun by Otamarluk, or at least threatened to be overrun. It was first and foremost Dardanet that came to Taveruun’s aid, and the Otamarluks were pushed back.

Later, when Helena was already harping back to its days of glory, many Helenans recalled, often a bit romantically, how their ancestors once stood against an evil eastern empire – and right now, their neighbours in Taveruun were still fighting an intermittent border war against just such an “evil eastern empire”. A romantic kind of crusader spirit spread throughout Helena, and Helenan mercenaries flocked east to fight Otamarluk. Where they learned of the eastern horseman tactics.


I am thinking that the Helene's once free of Xanarium have started a mercenary trade. This would be in keeping with their "merchant status". I'd imagine in a kind of Venetian way that Naval forces would be a big part of this. I am working on a trade model for Maraiah. Seeing that the Seat and Fauth are about to start a trade war :)

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