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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:45 pm 
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pbj44 wrote:
With the understanding of why experience points were given for treasure acquired, combat was something my group at the time avoided as much as possible in our delves. It was dangerous and sapped our resources.

It always payed to pick our fights very carefully, an attitude that TRoS embraces fully. Fights that were unavoidable in our loot quest were labeled "Money Fights" and seldom did a sword leave a scabbard for any other reason.

Incidentally, you’ve described just the way TroS is meant to be played. You avoid battles that are not important to the player, as expressed with the character and his SAs, but you have the character whip out his swords if something he (and ultimatley the player) cares about very much. If one or more SAs are firing, your all-in, if not, well, then you’re not.

I think that this aspect is quite challenging to players crossing over from “Old School” gaming. Here, it’s perfectly acceptable to force characters into conflicts, either into random encounters or into wholesale scenarios with its dangers that the characters have to pounce at if their players want to have an adventure. That approach’s a no-no in TRoS. Here, the referee must always leave a way out to avoid the conflict. The telling of the story is in which conflicts the characters picks and which he avoids – in sort, in the answer of the question “What is worth killing and dying for?”

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Incidentally, you’ve described just the way TroS is meant to be played. You avoid battles that are not important to the player, as expressed with the character and his SAs, but you have the character whip out his swords if something he (and ultimatley the player) cares about very much. If one or more SAs are firing, your all-in, if not, well, then you’re not.

I think that this aspect is quite challenging to players crossing over from “Old School” gaming. Here, it’s perfectly acceptable to force characters into conflicts, either into random encounters or into wholesale scenarios with its dangers that the characters have to pounce at if their players want to have an adventure. That approach’s a no-no in TRoS. Here, the referee must always leave a way out to avoid the conflict. The telling of the story is in which conflicts the characters picks and which he avoids – in sort, in the answer of the question “What is worth killing and dying for?”


I agree that some folks really have a hard time getting their head around the TRoS concept. For some reason it just seemed very intuitive to me for my character to pursue passions or interests that I myself cared about. I was lucky early on to have a GM that hated railroad plots, forced encounters and cartoon-like settings. He was secure enough to allow player interests to drive the plot and had the wit to build quickly on what we were doing at the time. We still talk about his games with great fondness.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:18 pm 
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Another tweak: All movement in the combat round should be performed before melee is resolved. This was not at all clear in my original rules so this patch covers my omission.

Cheers,

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:58 pm 
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pbj44 wrote:
Another tweak: All movement in the combat round should be performed before melee is resolved. This was not at all clear in my original rules so this patch covers my omission.


Very sensible.

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:19 am 
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Some thoughts: At my group's request I ran two of our combats today in this "Old School" fashion and I can see for myself that it does work, but man, the tension is really ratcheted up with all the tactical considerations involved. It was fun, but this is something that I would probably only use in one or two key moments in a storyline. The good news is it does play fast and does give that 0D&D vibe.

My interest in drafting it has mainly been from curiosity about the styles of play that could be supported using Ian's optional combat mechanics introduced in the Arcane Combat System thread (now a mainstay with my group). The answer to me is many. If there was ever a TROS second edition, this would be the way forward I think. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:32 am 
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pbj44 wrote:
Some thoughts: At my group's request I ran two of our combats today in this "Old School" fashion and I can see for myself that it does work, but man, the tension is really ratcheted up with all the tactical considerations involved. It was fun, but this is something that I would probably only use in one or two key moments in a storyline. The good news is it does play fast and does give that 0D&D vibe.

My interest in drafting it has mainly been from curiosity about the styles of play that could be supported using Ian's optional combat mechanics introduced in the Arcane Combat System thread (now a mainstay with my group). The answer to me is many. If there was ever a TROS second edition, this would be the way forward I think. :D


Many thanks for posting this. It is good to hear some positive feedback on the combat style. I am building my miniatures-based TRoS combat around this, with the objective of having combats resolve as quickly as Core combat but with the use of miniatures fully supported.

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:34 am 
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Hi Ian,

Experimenting is always fun for me as well. Combat does change quite a bit using these miniature rules. Now the man-to-man aspect of traditional TROS melee ripples outward into squad tactics that pulls everyone in at the table.

The last few months have been a lot of fun for my group with the adaptation of variable time in combat, wizards and archers joining the combat fray, and the adoption of the new ACS rules.

Once you provided the foundation (which really cleaned up a mess!), then the miniature rules were easy to draft as they now had a coherent structure to build upon. I did keep them very sparse by design (though it was very hard resisting the urge to add more!) since I wanted to keep play speed light and quick, with melee detail confined as much as possible to traditional TROS exchanges.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:55 pm 
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This is a revamp based on some play-testing and seems to make things run smoother and with a bit more coherence.

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Old School Combat

In this mod, exchanges are of a variable duration greater than two seconds. All non-ritual spells are therefore considered to be “instantaneous” (casting now takes no longer than any other combat activity), thus any one non-ritual spell may be cast during a combat round. The same change applies to missile combat; simply allowing the archer to attack one time per round. The rules cover six principal areas:

1. Surprise
2. Initiative
3. Magic
4. Missile Fire
5. Movement
6. Melee Combat



1. Surprise

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To check for surprise, the target (or target group) rolls a Reflex check against a TN based on their alertness at the moment of attack.

If the target(s) fails the surprise check, attackers are granted one free round of melee against them.

SURPRISE AND HESITATION TARGET NUMBERS:

TN5: Opponent on high alert – The target is very wary of an ambush and has a good idea of where it would come from.

TN7: Opponent on Medium alert – The target is uneasy and in a basic state of alertness.

TN10: Unsuspecting or inattentive.

TN13: Blindsided!

2. Initiative

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At the beginning of each new combat round all spells being cast (or sorcery duels initiated) will be declared, followed by the GM and a group designated player each rolling 1D10 to determine which side will have initiative for the round. The GM may add such commonsense modifiers as he feels appropriate. The winning side has the option to perform all Magic, Missile attacks, and Movement (the three M's!) first, followed by the losing side’s actions in the same order. When all steps for both sides are complete, then melee is resolved.

3. Magic

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Spell casting takes place at the start of each group's combat actions, and unless the spell description states otherwise, the spell takes effect on the caster’s turn. With the exception of dueling (see below),the sorcerer must stay in place or the spell is lost.

A caster may not launch any melee attack during a round in which a spell is being cast, and If struck (even for zero damage) while casting, the spell is lost.

If attacked while casting, a sorcerer may still possibly get their spell off if the following conditions are met:

1) The sorcerer must pass a WP/Meditation check to remain focused on casting or the spell fails.
2) The sorcerer’s CTN must be lower than the attacker’s ATN.
3) The caster must win a contested roll vs. the attacker, with the sorcerer rolling Wit/TN8 and his opponent REF/TN=ATN.

Enemies will naturally attempt to neutralize a known sorcerer as soon as possible, so, for each time a sorcerer casts a spell a D10 is rolled:

1-5) the sorcerer is correctly identified as the caster of the spell.

6-10) a random PC/NPC is incorrectly targeted as the caster of the spell.

In the event that two or more sorcerers attempt casting during the same combat round, each spell will fire on each sorcerer’s turn unless one of the sorcerers forces a duel, with the victor winning control of all arcane draw lines in the area and casting his spell, while denying his opponent access to all elemental nodes. See Arcane Combat System in Book Four (Elemental and Spiritual Casting) for further details. This duel must be declared at the beginning of the round, before initiative is determined. Dueling is a time consuming contest full of movement and is thus handled a bit different than traditional spell casting. Once the duel commences, each sorcerer will resolve all movement during their team's movement phase. This is followed by the duel's exchanges, which are resolved during the melee stage of combat.

4. Missile Fire

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Missile attacks are attacks with ranged weapons such as a crossbow, sling, or thrown axe, made using the attacker’s Missile Pool (MP). Such attacks may be made on opponents 5’ or more from the attacker. If the target of a missile attack is unaware of the archer, the attack succeeds providing basic success is achieved on the attack roll.

If the target is aware of the archer, he can always defend against missile fire, even when such fire is directed into melee combat. Assuming the melee combatant is aware of the danger, treat the incoming arrow simply as another attack during that exchange – it may be blocked (but not parried) or avoided with an evasion.

This may mean that the target is facing two attacks that exchange if an opponent has initiative, or that he may wish to perform a Simultaneous Block/Strike or similar maneuver if he has the initiative. As always, a character who is not presently engaged in combat uses his Reflex as a die pool for evading or blocking missile fire. The archer must have a clear line of sight on a target for an attack to be launched.

Range Mod: Point Blank +1 die, Short Range – Zero, Medium Range -1 die, Long Range -3 dice, and Extreme Range -5 dice

For hit location roll 2D6: 2 Head (Zone XIII) 3 Arm (Zone XIV, choose which arm randomly) 4 Arm (Zone XIV, choose which arm randomly) 5 Torso (Zone XII) 6 Torso (Zone XII) 7 Torso (ZoneXI) 8Torso (Zone X) 9 Torso (Zone X) 10 Upper Legs (Zone IX, choose which leg randomly) 11Upper Legs (Zone IX, choose which leg randomly) 12 Lower Legs (Zone VIII, choose which leg randomly)

TNs for evading missile fire: Plentiful cover/Large shield = TN4
Some cover/Medium shield = TN7
Poor cover/Small shield = TN9

5. Movement

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While a character’s Move attribute reflects non-combat movement, all movement within the combat round itself is handled by the Movement Points pool (MvP), which is calculated as 2X a character’s base Move score. One movement point is spent per 5’ square travelled. A character may move and attack in the same round, though all movement must end within 5’ (or 10’ if a spear or other polearm is used) of an opponent for melee to occur. All movement pools refresh each new round, and a character’s facing may be changed at any time at no cost.

Terrain Rolls: Terrain rolls are now relegated to true movement challenges such as attempting a backwards leap onto a staircase, swinging from a chandelier, maintaining footing during combat on an icy path, ect,. The player simply describes the desired activity to the GM, who will advise the player of any movement point requirements and the TN to be rolled. The player then deducts the movement points from his available pool, and rolls vs. the target TN using his Agility attribute.

Again, once all movement for both sides is complete, then melee is resolved.

6. Melee Combat

Image

Once attacked or attacking, a character is considered to be engaged in melee, which consists of two combat exchanges. When engaged, a character must evade each opponent faced before withdrawing from melee combat. A defender may only be attacked by a maximum of three opponents at any one time.

Spears and polearms in the second rank of a battle formation can attack by reaching through the first rank of Fighting-men.

Charging: A charge grants 2 additional CP to an attack, but must end with the attacker in melee range of the targeted opponent to avoid a 4 CP penalty.

Defenders with polearms or long spears may brace against this charge, granting them +2CP for defense in the initial exchange.

This concludes the latest revision for Old School Riddle of Steel Combat.

Enjoy!

Phil


Last edited by pbj44 on Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:35 am, edited 12 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 9:40 pm 
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pbj44 wrote:
This concludes the latest revision for Old School Riddle of Steel Combat.

Enjoy!


Phil, you and your players have really taken this through to a very satisfactory conclusion. For anyone who wants minis in their TRoS game this is the way to go. You've kept the affect on pacing to a minimum yet it reallt does retain the feel of Old School combat scenes. Well done, and thanks for posting this refinement of the system.

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:28 am 
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Ian, thanks for the kind words!

I think this version is one that really does it for me. Dump individual initiative, make spell casting a bit riskier, rachet up the tension with a by round initiative check, reorganize a bit, simplify melee - and you have boiled things down about as far as one can.

Most importantly, it feels right. I knew things were going correctly playtesting this version when folks started standing up at the table during fights and getting downright (what's a good word...) vocal...

Not to name names (Mike, Josh, Ryan!), but some of my players were screaming like little girls during last week's final combat against a Hag!

Cheers!

Phil


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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:03 am 
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This version is a little more crunchy but is more satisfying in a tactical sense. Enjoy!

Each round proceeds as follows:


initiative 1. Both sides roll 1d6 for initiative; high roll wins.
missile/spell 2. In initiative order, both sides fire missiles, cast spells, etc.
movement 3. Side with initiative moves at up to rated movement rate
movement 4. Side without initiative moves at up to rated movement rate
missile/spell 5. In initiative order, both sides fire missiles, cast spells, etc.

movement 6. Side without initiative moves at up to rated movement rate
movement 7. Side with initiative moves at up to rated movement rate
missile/spell 8. Unengaged combatants fire missile, cast spells, etc.
melee 9. Engaged combatants fight one round of melee consisting of two exchanges.


Missile attacks

Missile attacks are attacks with ranged weapons such as a crossbow, Bow, sling, or thrown axe, made using the attacker’s Missile Pool (MP). Such attacks may be made on opponents 5’ or more from the attacker. If the target of a missile attack is unaware of the archer, the attack succeeds providing basic success is achieved on the attack roll.

If the target is aware of the archer, he can always defend against missile fire, even when such fire is directed into melee combat. Assuming the melee combatant is aware of the danger, treat the incoming arrow simply as another attack during that exchange – it may be blocked (but not parried), or avoided with an evasion.

This may mean that the target is facing two attacks that exchange if an opponent has initiative, or that he may wish to perform a Simultaneous Block/Strike or similar maneuver if he has the initiative. As always, a character who is not presently engaged in combat uses his Reflex as a die pool for evading or blocking missile fire. The archer must have a clear line of sight on a target for an attack to be launched.

Range Mod: Point Blank +1 die, Short Range – Zero, Medium Range -1 die, Long Range -3 dice, and Extreme Range -5 dice

For hit location roll 2D6: 2 Head (Zone XIII) 3 Arm (Zone XIV, choose which arm randomly) 4 Arm (Zone XIV, choose which arm randomly) 5 Torso (Zone XII) 6 Torso (Zone XII) 7 Torso (ZoneXI) 8Torso (Zone X) 9 Torso (Zone X) 10 Upper Legs (Zone IX, choose which leg randomly) 11Upper Legs (Zone IX, choose which leg randomly) 12 Lower Legs (Zone VIII, choose which leg randomly)

TNs for evading missile fire: Plentiful cover/Large shield = TN4
Some cover/Medium shield = TN7
Poor cover/Small shield = TN9

Rules for Missile/Ranged Attacks
• Archers standing still may fire twice (in either phase 2 or 5, and phase 8)
• Archers taking one movement phase may fire once (in either phase 2 or 8).
• Archers moving in both movement phases may not fire.
• Slingers standing still may fire once (in either phase 2, 5, or 8)
• Slingers taking one movement phase may fire once (in either phase 2 or 8).
• Slingers moving in both movement phases may not fire.
• Crossbowmen standing still may fire once (in either phase 2 or 5) and reload*
• Crossbowmen standing still may reload* and fire once (in either phase 5 or 8).
• Crossbowmen taking one movement phase may fire once (in either phase 2 or 8) or reload*
• Crossbowmen moving in both movement phases may reload but may not fire.*
* Heavy crossbowmen require a full round (with no movement) to reload

• Combatants hurling spears, axes, or hammers may fire once (in either phase 2, 5, or 8) and move in both phases, including charging, if desired.
• Combatants hurling daggers or javelins may fire once (in either phase 2, 5, or 8) and move in both phases with charge.
• Combatants hurling daggers or javelins may fire twice (in phase 2 or 5, and phase 8) and move in both phases without charge.

Rules for Spell casting
Exchanges are now assumed to be of a variable duration greater than two seconds. All non-ritual spells are now considered to be “instantaneous” (casting now takes no longer than any other combat activity), thus any one non-ritual spell may be cast during a combat round and are governed by the following rules:

• A spell caster cannot move and cast a spell in the same round.
• A spell caster may not normally cast a spell while engaged in melee. But, If the caster becomes engaged while casting, but before the spell is finished, a caster may still possibly get their spell off if the following conditions are met:

1) The caster must pass a WP/Meditation check to remain focused, or the spell fails.
2) The caster’s CTN must be lower than the attacker’s ATN.
3) The caster must win a contested roll vs. the attacker, with the sorcerer rolling Wit/TN8 and his opponent REF/TN=ATN.
• A spell caster may cast a maximum of one spell per round.

Rules for Melee & Movement
• Combatants who move in both phases may not engage in melee unless they charge.
• Combatants are considered engaged in melee when the distance between them is equal to or less than the longest reach (e.g. weapon reach, et cetera). Alternatively, this may be simplified to 10 ft.
• A moving combatant who becomes engaged may not leave engagement or continue movement to the flanks or rear of his opponent during the initial round of engagement. A combatant not already engaged in melee may move a maximum of 5' right or left in order to confront and contact an enemy attempting to bypass or move into a flanking position.
• If one combatant in a melee has allies to his immediate left or right which are not engaged with other enemies, these allies may move into flanking or rear positions against their common enemy after the first round of melee.
• Flanking position grants a +1 CP bonus and negates any benefit from the target's shield.
• Rear positioning grants a +2 CP bonus and negates any benefit from the target's shield.
• Disengage: a combatant with a clear path (i.e. through an area out of enemy reach) may attempt to disengage at half movement rate. A combatant must evade each opponent faced before withdrawing from melee combat.
• A defender may only be attacked by a maximum of three opponents at any one time.

Charging: A charge doubles a combatant’s movement rate and grants 2 additional CP to an attack, but must end with the attacker in melee range of the targeted opponent to avoid a 4 CP penalty. Defenders with polearms or long spears may brace against this charge, granting them +2CP for defense in the initial exchange.

This concludes the latest update to the rules for Old School Riddle of Steel Combat.

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:55 pm 
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I've come to re-read this thread due the comments you made on EoS pre-alpha.

Doesn't it bend or break your suspension of disbelief when nocking an arrow, aiming and shooting takes as much time as a single swing of a sword? And reloading a heavy crossbow takes only twice that much? Or if the rounds are set via the ranged/magic user standard, what are the melee characters occupied with when not actively engaged in the exchanges? If the rounds are with different length for everybody involved, it creates huge time paradoxes, no? I understand that your goal is to give every type of character equal amount of rolls, but my suspension of disbelief snaps instantly when reading this... both tactically and cinematically. Virtually the only thing "missing" is the infamous five foot step away from an axe swinging berserker to calmly reload a crossbow an bolting him into the gut.

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:46 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Doesn't it bend or break your suspension of disbelief when nocking an arrow, aiming and shooting takes as much time as a single swing of a sword?


No more so here than it did when I first read blue book D&D back in the early 80s. And that's the point of this system isn't it -- to recreate the feel of Old School RPG combat...?

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:55 pm 
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As I get it, this is his best version of giving all players equal number of actions, and that is the same goal he wants EoS to pursue. Or am I getting it wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Old School style TRoS combat!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:18 pm 
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higgins wrote:
As I get it, this is his best version of giving all players equal number of actions, and that is the same goal he wants EoS to pursue. Or am I getting it wrong?


"Old school" equates to traditional values. So a carpenter that is "old school" is one that knows how to sharpen a hand saw, knows how to cut a dovetail by hand -- and likely comes from the previous generation.

An "old school" combat system is one that feels like the previous generation of RPGs. RPGs haven't been around that long, so that means something like D&D or AD&D as the previous generation to d20. So what PJ's crew have done is modified TRoS combat so that it works like an "old school" RPG -- and codified their rule changes into this thread.

Of course this isn't everyone's preferred way of playing -- I mean, if you never played the original D&D you're not going to feel all nostalgic about a mod that allows TRoS to emulate that style of combat. But for those of us who played that system in our teens, a mod that let's us recreate that style of combat under TRoS is pretty cool.

But that doesn't mean EoS combat should work like a first generation RPG combat system.

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