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 Post subject: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:42 am 
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Hey guys, has anyone done any work on Naval Ships? And/or Ship to Ship Combat.

And if not would anyone be interested in giving it a go?

Unfortunately I don't know nearly enough bout Ships and Sailing to do it myself.

At the very least a good list of Ships by Country/Region and Era, listing their Prices, their Speeds (with and against the wind, by oar and by sail), their number of Crew, and their Cargo Capacity would be great.

Also, has anyone done any work on things like Cannons?

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:53 am 
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All I can recall is Jeanry's oar-ship combat rules in his viking crunch thread.

Edit: The old link is broken. Check here: viewtopic.php?p=9048#p9048

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Last edited by higgins on Sun Feb 06, 2011 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:19 am 
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Hey Higgins... they don't look too bad. A pity Jeanry isn't really around anymore, I think he'd make a great Sail System.

Maybe we can take the principles in his system and expand them?

I can't wait to get my hands on The Story of Sail. Should be good.

Cheers & God Bless!

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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:32 am 
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You mean this one? I mean, I have that... it has mainly drawings of hull and rigging and you can count the number of cannons etc, but there's no info on the crews and such. I mean, it's an excellent reference on the how the ships looked and how large they were, but it contains no "core" knowledge about how a ship is crewed and all that essential stuff you really need to know for putting that book into proper use.

You've finally entered the Pirates of the Caribbean craze, haven't you? I can totally understand that... I was quite baffled when re-watching the Pearl after seeing the sequels... it's an excellent movie! :)

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"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:49 am 
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Aye, I've reached me Pirate Stage... truth be told I've always loved Pirate Campaigns, but the trouble is hardly anyone runs them and when they do they generally suck.

My Group started a Firefly/Serenity Campaign so I've been stocking up on Cowboy Movies and Sci Fi shows, then I thought, what the hell I'll through in some Pirate to mix things up... now I'm hooked :D

Hmm, so that book is just pics... no hard info. Damn, I mean, it'll still be a great resource as good Deck Plans are nearly impossble to come by, I guess I just have to get another mainly text book to go with it :D

Cheers & God Bless!

Crow.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 11:41 am 
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Okay, here's the best pirate informational web-page I've ever seen.

As for The Story of Sail, Michael recommended me the book some time ago and here's what we talked about: viewtopic.php?p=4485#p4485

Here's a typical illustration from the book (almost all decks are halved, so, you need to mirror them to complete the deck), but you literally get such drawings from a guy paddling on a tree trunk to quite modern sports yachts.

Michael also recommended this book, but I haven't gotten around buying it yet.

And as I'm already at it, here are Ian's sailing references: viewtopic.php?p=4889#p4889

Oh, and your post reminded me that I bookmarked a number of books for later revision and now that I look at what I've bookmarked, I'm very tempted of buying this one... $35 on eBay for a softcover edition. 8-)

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"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:51 pm 
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Hey Higgins... thanks for the links man.

I still think I'll get the Story of Sail, though atleast now I know I still need to keep an eye out for Deck Plans, and some more indepth books.

Prices, Speeds, Crew and Cargo along with good Deck Plans is what I'm looking for. Its crazy how hard it is to find the info tho.

Cheers.

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"It was hard-fought, a desperate affair that could have gone badly; if God had not helped me, the outcome would have been quick and fatal" (115) ~ Beowulf after defeating Grendle's Mother.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:21 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
Prices, Speeds, Crew and Cargo along with good Deck Plans is what I'm looking for. Its crazy how hard it is to find the info tho.
I know... it's hard to the point of being ridiculous. The only adequate information I've found on web are the crews of Nina, Pinta & Santa Maria...

Also, Michael mentioned a pirate RPG with excellent historical authenticity, but it's in French! :cry: Anyways, it's called Pavillon Noir and it used to be free... Here's a free .pdf on information about ships... maybe you can decipher it.

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"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:35 pm 
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My Fiance took French in High School, wonder how she'll go at it, lol.

Truth be told I took it too until it became blatantly clear that I was never ever ever going to be able to say anything more than hello :p

It's amazing how I went from being able to speak two languages fluently at the age of 3 to being barely able to speak one :D

Cheers!

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"It was hard-fought, a desperate affair that could have gone badly; if God had not helped me, the outcome would have been quick and fatal" (115) ~ Beowulf after defeating Grendle's Mother.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:58 pm 
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Have you guys ever seen or played Close Action, or Wooden Ships and Iron Men? They're wargames with a high level of realistic rules. I've got Close Action and I really enjoy playing it. I wonder if it would be worth it to look at porting some of those mechanics into something more TROS-like.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:39 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
Prices, Speeds, Crew and Cargo along with good Deck Plans is what I'm looking for. Its crazy how hard it is to find the info tho.

That's because you can't easily generalize.

Ships were made to order, and the prices of even outwardly very similar ships could vary widely based on intricacies of design, the wood used and the techniques employed. And then there are huge amounts of very different materials that go into a ship -- different woods, rope, various metals, tar, fabrics, etc. Prices would depend on how far this stuff had to be transported to the shipyard, and then on general availability. Historically, many of the materials involved were often on short supply, exactly because of shipyards' high demand for them...

And speeds can vary widely with the weather. Before the rigging allowed for tacking (developed to this height somewhere around 1400 AD), the slowest recorded travel time for one and the same voyage is frequently more than ten times as long as the shortest recorded time. And even with tacking, an unfavourable wind direction could mean only a third of the distance covered than with a favourable one. And we'r enot even speaking about windspeeds. Bottom line is that respectable publications will not give average speeds because there just is no such thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:04 pm 
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Daeruin wrote:
I've got Close Action and I really enjoy playing it. I wonder if it would be worth it to look at porting some of those mechanics into something more TROS-like.
That game seems very TROS-like in the terms of extensive damage tables. :lol: But no, haven't seen it nor is it sold on eBay... and judging from the pictures in BGG, every owner of that game has re-modeled the game with awesome ship miniatures. :o

But if that's really as realistic game as the reviews claim and you're as well versed in it as in TROS, some kind of port would be awesome. :)

Grettir wrote:
Bottom line is that respectable publications will not give average speeds because there just is no such thing.
But still there should be some estimates on how long certain a trip would take? And some types of ships would prove faster than other in equal conditions...

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"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:34 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
Prices, Speeds, Crew and Cargo along with good Deck Plans is what I'm looking for. Its crazy how hard it is to find the info tho.


Grettir wrote:
That's because you can't easily generalize.

Ships were made to order, and the prices of even outwardly very similar ships could vary widely based on intricacies of design, the wood used and the techniques employed.


In the age in which we are interested -- 13th, 14th 15th, 16th, 17th centuries -- every ship is unique. The emphasis of any TRoS naval game design has to be on this central tenet.

When a ship reached the end of its service life the Venetian shipwrights of the Renaissance disassembled it, measured every component, and attempted to create an exact replica. The ship designers looked to the texts and images of the ancients and tried to recreate their designs. The prevailing view was that there was nothing new that the ancients hadn't already built. The rivalry between ship designers was fierce -- industrial espionage becomes an artform during the height of the Venetian empire.

The net result is that ships are unique and were thought of individually. A TRoS naval game should treat a ship as a character with a character sheet. The character sheet should have sufficient attributes and granularity that no two ships are identical. Ships should have skills, reflecting what the crew are capable of doing with it. These skills are developed at char gen, they reflect the ship's design, and they cannot be changed without a refit of the ship.

At least, that's what I would like to see.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:42 am 
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Grettir wrote:
Bottom line is that respectable publications will not give average speeds because there just is no such thing.
higgins wrote:
But still there should be some estimates on how long certain a trip would take?

From hat scholarly disquisitions on seamanship – in the ancient world – I have studied it would appear that it isn’t. In the relevant passages, the articles and monographs only ever list instances of known travel times. Seeing these times next to each other, I realized that the travel times vary by so huge amounts that calculating an “average speed” at all just isn’t possible.

And then there is something I’ve “learned” mainly from Patrick O’Brian, meaning that it seems likely but that I’ll not vouch for its truth: Even two identical ships (something that just doesn’t exist) would under identical circumstances not achieve the same speed, as this does also depend on the skill of the captain. Captain and crew skill (and this is now once again a hard fact) becomes ever more important from the 14th century onwards, with the rigging becoming ever more complicated and the number of sails and lines increasing drastically. This is especially telling under high winds (once again O’Brian, now) – “average” or cautious captains will unde rhigh winds reduce sails (and thus speed) so as not to risk damage to the rigging, whereas “good” or confident captains will not decrease it and thus use the prevalent violent winds better. The higher the wind, the higher the crew/captain-dependent variance in speed; add to this wind direction, rigging type, amount of cargo and even its distribution in the ship, shape of the hull, and overall quality of the ship and you’ve a murderous amount of variables.

higgins wrote:
And some types of ships would prove faster than other in equal conditions...

Sure. But these bare bones of info ("X is, under exactly equal conditions, including cargo, 15% to 30% faster than Y") would hardly be enough for role-players, I guess. And somewhat useless as well, as there are no equal conditions... :(

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 Post subject: Re: Rules for Ships, and Ship to Ship Combat ??
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:14 am 
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So it would seem regarding speed, that we would need several mechanics to determine the Conditions (this includes wind speed and directions), Encumbrance (this can further be modified by crew skill), and Crew Skill.

Three rolls should then determine the Speed which would be modified by a static modifer supplied by the Ship?

The first roll would be made by the GM and set the conditions for everyone involved over the next hour or so.

The Encumbrance Modifier would be determined when the Cargo is loaded, and perhaps modified by the Crew Skill representing distributing it well.

The Ship's Modifier would be more or less static though could be modified by deteriation of the ship from damae and neglect.

Then this would leave a simple Roll for Crew Skill. Although I prefer the Captain Rolls with a modifeir for Crew Skill (Other PC's can aid).

Thoughts?

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