It is currently Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:37 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 130
If someone has the time it would be great if they could run their eye over this mod and point out any inherent problems this mod might have with how the TROS combat rules operate. The goal of the mod is to change how strength modifies damage, which in turn makes it possible with all attacks to cause a level 1 wound, and also means there is no need for toughness to operate in the way it does.

STRENGTH IN COMBAT EXCHANGES
1. Each manoeuver in the game will be either a manoeuver affected by strength or one that is not. Examples of attack manoeuvers that are affected by strength would be Bash, Cut, Beat, Grapple, Half-Sword,Thrust etc - i.e. most of them. Defence maneuvers would be Block, Grapple, Half-Sword, Parry etc. Manoeuvers which are not strength manoeuvers are things like Toss, Evades etc.

2. If both the attack and defensive manoeuvers are manoeuvers affected by strength, then strength can modifiy the dice pool for one of those manoeuvers. Each side adds up their strength score and weapon damage modifier (the damage modifier of the weapon as per Tros e.g. an arming sword cut damage is str+1, so for these purposes it's weapon damage modifier is +1) . Both sides are compared and the one that has the highest total gets the difference in dice added to his dice pool for the manoeuver he is attempting.

DAMAGE AND ARMOUR
If a blow successfully lands, the damage modifier of the weapon is subtracted from any Armour AV covering the target location. The remaing AV, if any, is subtracted from the MOS, to give the final damage level.


A few other thoughts:

1. Should the defender's weapon/shield that was used for the defence have a defensive weapon damage modifier as well, for use in determining their defensive strength total? This could be different than its weapon damage modifier it has when attacking i.e. a weapon would have a damage modfier for each way it can attack, as per Tros, but also a defensive weapon modifier for each way it can defend - block and parry. Without such a modifier, the attacker has a distinct advantage to final strength totals.

2. I was thinking that perhaps parry should not be a strength based defensive manoeuver, as it defflects the blow, rather than blocking it. Perhaps also thrust is not a stregnth modified manoeuver as well? Making Parry work this way would mean that if you defend this way, you nullify the opponent's strength all together - is it harder to parry a blow with more strength behind it then one with less?


Any comments would be much appreciated.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 130
Forgot to mention. Putting this here as it is not really anything to do with EOS.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Can you bring an example of how the mechanics works in a simple cut vs parry exchange? Arming sword does the cutting and longsword does the parrying (that's to give weapons different DRs).

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 130
No problem.

Attacker has a strength of 5 and cuts at his oppoent with a 10 dice attack. He is using a Arming sword that does damage with a cut of St+1, so in this mod has a weapon damage modifier of +1 (you just discount the strength).

The defender is parrying with a longsword with 9 dice and has a strength of 3.

A Cut and a parry are both strength modified manoeuvers, so we have to work out if one side has any extra dice for a strength advantage. The attacker has a total of 6 (5 for his strength and +1 for the weapon damage modifier). The defender has a total of 3. The attacker's total is higher so he gets to add the difference between the two strength totals to his dice pool. His dice pool with the cut is now 13 (10 + 3 (the difference between the strength totals). If the defender had been 8 strength, then his total would have been two more than the attackers and he would have gained +2 dice for his manoeuver.

Say the attacker gets a mos of 3, but the location he hits is covered by the defender's leather jack. The leather Jack has an AV of 2. This is reduced by the attacker's weapon modifier of 1 (+1 for an arming sword cutting), so the total AV is 1. His final wound level would, therefore, be a level 2 wound. If the defender did not have any armour, then the attacker's weapon modifier of +1 would not count, as after determining MOS, weapon modifiers only count for reducing AV, not for doing more damage.

As I said earlier, it is probably necessary to give weapons a defensive weapon modifier, so that it is not only the attacker who gains extra strength from the weapon he uses. This could be just one number, or could be different depending on the type of attack it is defending against or the type of maneouver using it i.e. you could make it as detailed as you want. So, for example, if a longsword had a defensive modifier of +1, then the strength totals would have been 6 for the attacker and 4 for the defender, only giving the attacker +2 dice.

Hope that makes more sense.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Ah, thanks. Comments:

First off, this comparing seems a lot of work. I've mused something similar in the past, but I just added ST to the CP... it has an effect and there's no extra counting.

Secondly, it makes all weapons equal if the opponent is unarmoured. Do you intend to make heavy use of the Draw Cut maneuver to model the more viscious cutting weapons? Even still, how do you account that two handed weapons make equal damage than one handed weapons? I can tell from experience, it's almost impossible to parry a spear thrust with a one handed sword as it has the power of both hands behind it. Using both arms makes a big difference inertia-wise, and the TROS weapon tables model that well enough.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 130
Thanks for having a look at the mod :) .

I have thought of adding strength to the cp, but got caught up in thinking there are some manoeuvers that wouldn't seem to use strength, so shide away from it. As to the added comparing, I agree, but think it might be worth it given the benefits it brings, at least for my gaming.

Weapons are not actually equal in this mod, even against an unarmoured opponent - if you do any of the attacks, cuts, bashes, thrusts, etc, then your weapon modifier adds on to your strength to see if you get a strength bonus.

e.g. the attacker has 5 strength and uses 2 handed dopplehander, so he has an effective strength of 9 if he cuts with it (5 for the strength and + 4 for the strength modifier for the weapon). Against the example above, the defender with a longsword would only have 3 strength (4 if their was a defensive weapon modifier), giving the attacker 6 extra dice - on average another 3 successes (5 with defensive mods utilized).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:37 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Iorwerth wrote:
I have thought of adding strength to the cp, but got caught up in thinking there are some manoeuvers that wouldn't seem to use strength, so shide away from it.
I can only think of Stop Short, Toss, Evasions. And even Evasions can be counted as using ST when you add the CP penalty to Evasion activation costs TFOB style -- the more ST you have, the less those activations affect you.

Iorwerth wrote:
Weapons are not actually equal in this mod, even against an unarmoured opponent - if you do any of the attacks, cuts, bashes, thrusts, etc, then your weapon modifier adds on to your strength to see if you get a strength bonus.
Ah, yes, they count as an attack bonus, meaning the bonus to connect the blow.

However, see how one handed weapons cut differently, even when they hit with a roughly same amount of force: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyAkA4Fc6CY

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 7:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 130
higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
I have thought of adding strength to the cp, but got caught up in thinking there are some manoeuvers that wouldn't seem to use strength, so shide away from it.
I can only think of Stop Short, Toss, Evasions. And even Evasions can be counted as using ST when you add the CP penalty to Evasion activation costs TFOB style -- the more ST you have, the less those activations affect you.


While that may be true, what I like about not having strength effect certain manoeuvers is that it introduces one more level of tactical thinking. If you are a normal strength guy facing a man mountain with strength coming out of his ears, you may well be much better off trying to evade his blows than parry or block them. This seems quite realistic to me, and wouldn't be the case if strength was just added to the CP.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
Weapons are not actually equal in this mod, even against an unarmoured opponent - if you do any of the attacks, cuts, bashes, thrusts, etc, then your weapon modifier adds on to your strength to see if you get a strength bonus.
Ah, yes, they count as an attack bonus, meaning the bonus to connect the blow.

However, see how one handed weapons cut differently, even when they hit with a roughly same amount of force: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyAkA4Fc6CY


Wouldn't this be taken into account by the weapon damage modifier anyway? 2 handed weapons have a bigger modifier, so do cut better etc.Or have I missed your point here?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:31 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Iorwerth wrote:
While that may be true, what I like about not having strength effect certain manoeuvers is that it introduces one more level of tactical thinking.
Do you see any other maneuvers as non-ST than the ones I listed?

Iorwerth wrote:
Wouldn't this be taken into account by the weapon damage modifier anyway? 2 handed weapons have a bigger modifier, so do cut better etc. Or have I missed your point here?
I meant the cutting comparison of one handed weapons. Falchion has a higher DR due its curved blade, so, curved, heavier blades have a better chance of CONNECTING a blow in your mod due their DR, and then deal equal damage.

I guess I'm saying that for me personally, the standard solution makes more sense. I mean, let's imagine two pick-axes. One axe has an inch of it's pick-end missing, other is brand new. Game mechanically, the new pick has a better DR on the pick-end. The attack dice pool is larger, so the new weapons has a better change of CONNECTING in a first place, while the two weapons are identical in both handling and practical weight.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 130
higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
While that may be true, what I like about not having strength effect certain manoeuvers is that it introduces one more level of tactical thinking.
Do you see any other maneuvers as non-ST than the ones I listed?


Not in the basic book. In FOB perhaps net throw wouldn't use strength, but probably would. The major thing is that evasion wouldn't use strength, so against a stronger opponent evasion becomes a more attractive option, which makes sense to me. However, that is not to say you wouldn't block etc, just that by going strength to strength the stronger guy has an advantage - not necessarily one that better skill levels couldn't counteract though.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
Wouldn't this be taken into account by the weapon damage modifier anyway? 2 handed weapons have a bigger modifier, so do cut better etc. Or have I missed your point here?
I meant the cutting comparison of one handed weapons. Falchion has a higher DR due its curved blade, so, curved, heavier blades have a better chance of CONNECTING a blow in your mod due their DR, and then deal equal damage.


That is true, and is one of the consequences of putting strength and weapon damage into the chance of successfully hitting, rather than it just determing damage after a hit. Having said that, a heavier blade does not deal equal damage to a lighter one in my mod, because using the heavier weapon you will get a better final MOS with it, all rolls being equal, as it adds a dice or two more to the attack dice pool than a lighter weapon.

higgins wrote:
I guess I'm saying that for me personally, the standard solution makes more sense. I mean, let's imagine two pick-axes. One axe has an inch of it's pick-end missing, other is brand new. Game mechanically, the new pick has a better DR on the pick-end. The attack dice pool is larger, so the new weapons has a better change of CONNECTING in a first place, while the two weapons are identical in both handling and practical weight.


You could say that in your example, the weapon with an inch of it's pick end missing is less likely to do damage to an opponent than the one without this missing, which would be simulated in the mod by the fact that the one with the missing piece would probably have a smalled weapon damage modifier (i.e. the weapon with the missing piece has a reduced damage mod to the one without a missing piece), and so have a lesser chance of doing damage in the final result.

Really the mod is altering slightly the meaning of the outcome of the attack roll, in that the result of the roll in the mod gives you a final MOS which is the damage level, discounting any armour, so that the result of the attack roll is the final result, not just a hit i.e. in the mod the quality of the blow, the MOS of the roll, is how much damage it does to the target, and not just whether it hits or not. In Tros proper the roll itself does not give the final quality of the blow, as it needs to then be adjusted further for strength and weapon modiifier if it hits. If it doesn't hit then the strength and weapon damage modifier make no difference. This is the standard way that most RPGs operate, bar games like Nwod. However, unlike many other RPG's Tros has such tight wound table that the affects of strength and weapon modifier are so meaningful that causing slight wounds to an unarmoured man become very difficult, hence the need for naked dwarves etc. Really the mod needs a slight shift in perception to grasp, as it moves away from rolling to hit and then working out damage if you do hit, to the roll itself determining the damage done. If the roll fails, no damage is done, if it only makes it by a MOS of 1, then a slight wound has been achieved etc.

I don't really think I am explaining this that well, but hopefully from the above rambling you get an idea of what I am on about :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Iorwerth wrote:
the attack roll is the final result, not just a hit i.e. in the mod the quality of the blow, the MOS of the roll, is how much damage it does to the target, and not just whether it hits or not.
Yes, I'm getting that. I call burring the line between connecting and dealing damage "the AC concept", but your mod armour includes the armour value in a sensible way.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 130
What is the AC concept? Is there a thread on it around here anywhere?

EDIT: think you might be talking about Armour Class here, as in D&D. If so, they I know what you mean.

A couple of questions:

Should the weapon modifier subtract from the armour AV after the roll, as I have it doing? This means the weapon modifier is occuring twice, once as an extra die or dice in the attack roll, and once as a straight modifier to AV. If it only applies in the roll, then its effects are really being halved in comparison to standard tros, as they have to be rolled successes. Not sure if having it count twice is good or not.

In addition, I was thinking that rather than having strength apply as above, you could have derived attribute, 'Brawn', apply instead. Brawn would be derived from strength and toughness /2. This would bring toughness into the equation of damage. Would this be sensible, or does it just complicate things? My intial idea for toughness was that it would be evident by how you dealt with the shock and pain of your wound, rather than it reduce the actual severity of the wound itself, which is why I am not sure it is good to bring it into the actual rolls. In this system toughness would be a product of your willpower - how good you are at working through pain and shock, not some toughness stat as is currently the case in Tros. The toughness of other types of creatures e.g. bears, trolls etc would be augmented by having some natural AV, signifying toughness of hide, protection by layers of blubber etc. So, would it be better to combine toughness into a brawn like stat, or should |I keep to my idea that toughness is a function of willpower?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Iorwerth wrote:
I think you might be talking about Armour Class here, as in D&D.
Yup.

Iorwerth wrote:
Should the weapon modifier subtract from the armour AV after the roll, as I have it doing? This means the weapon modifier is occuring twice, once as an extra die or dice in the attack roll, and once as a straight modifier to AV. If it only applies in the roll, then its effects are really being halved in comparison to standard tros, as they have to be rolled successes. Not sure if having it count twice is good or not.
If you keep only one, make it the armour reducer. Thus the weapon choice has more effect.

Iorwerth wrote:
In addition, I was thinking that rather than having strength apply as above, you could have derived attribute, 'Brawn', apply instead. Brawn would be derived from strength and toughness /2.
I'm not sure I follow... The more pain your body is able to resist, the more damaging your blows are?

Iorwerth wrote:
In this system toughness would be a product of your willpower - how good you are at working through pain and shock, not some toughness stat as is currently the case in Tros. The toughness of other types of creatures e.g. bears, trolls etc would be augmented by having some natural AV, signifying toughness of hide, protection by layers of blubber etc.
If the newTO is a function of WP, why would that have anything to do with the protection layers? I think it would make more sense to count hide, etc, as AV.

Iorwerth wrote:
So, would it be better to combine toughness into a brawn like stat, or should |I keep to my idea that toughness is a function of willpower?
I like the latter better, but keep in mind that I'm not sure I get what you mean by this Brawn.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:06 pm
Posts: 130
higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
Should the weapon modifier subtract from the armour AV after the roll, as I have it doing? This means the weapon modifier is occuring twice, once as an extra die or dice in the attack roll, and once as a straight modifier to AV. If it only applies in the roll, then its effects are really being halved in comparison to standard tros, as they have to be rolled successes. Not sure if having it count twice is good or not.
If you keep only one, make it the armour reducer. Thus the weapon choice has more effect.


I think you need to keep it in the attack roll side of it, as if it only affects armour then it won't help you out against unarmoured opponents. My feeling at the moment is that it does need to do both to keep being a meaningful modifier.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
In addition, I was thinking that rather than having strength apply as above, you could have derived attribute, 'Brawn', apply instead. Brawn would be derived from strength and toughness /2.
I'm not sure I follow... The more pain your body is able to resist, the more damaging your blows are?


Not just how damaging your blows are, but also how resistant you are to blows, if you look at it from a defensive viewpoint, as it can effects your defence as well. I suppose Brawn is more your physicality, which lends power to your strikes and lends you aid in withstanding strikes against you. Brawn is just a sort of catch-all term for saying the stronger you are, the more physical stess your body can handle. It just seemed to be a good way of bringing in toughness to make it part and parcel of Brawn.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
In this system toughness would be a product of your willpower - how good you are at working through pain and shock, not some toughness stat as is currently the case in Tros. The toughness of other types of creatures e.g. bears, trolls etc would be augmented by having some natural AV, signifying toughness of hide, protection by layers of blubber etc.
If the newTO is a function of WP, why would that have anything to do with the protection layers? I think it would make more sense to count hide, etc, as AV.


I would count hide, as opposed to skin, as AV - basically any protection that is tougher than human skin would be AV.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
This all seems pretty reasonable to me.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 49 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group              Designed by QuakeZone