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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:42 am 
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Great! Thanks Higgins. I was not sure if I had missed something major with the rules that would have made my mod have unforseen and unwanted effects.


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:44 am 
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Note I have very little experience with this system, but is not CP a measure of how much you can do in a round.
So how does St effect this; you are strong so you can swing faster, recover quicker, would this be correct?

Allan


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:05 am 
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aprewett wrote:
Note I have very little experience with this system, but is not CP a measure of how much you can do in a round.

So how does St effect this; you are strong so you can swing faster, recover quicker, would this be correct?


With this mod the definition of CP would have to change. This is no bad thing; I may be wrong but I think that the definition you give is one created on trosfans.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:40 pm 
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You are right Ian, the defintion of CP would need to change to take into account the fact that Strength, or Brawn, has come into it.

One ramifications that has occured to me about this mod:

With weapons having different TN's to hit, it would mean that the weapon with the lower TN would take more advantage of any difference in strength, as those extra dice that a strength advantage would give would be more likely to be converted into successes. This does not seem satisfactory - why would a sword with a TN of 6 make better use of strength than an axe with a TN of 8?

My solution to this is to go for a universal TN6 for all combat, something I wanted to do anyway. To account for the differences in TN, the weapon's TN gives a penalty or bonus in the manoeuver, in the form of additional automatic successes or success penalties that are subtracted from the final MOS:

Tn5: +1 auto success
Tn6: no change
Tn7: -1 successes
Tn8: -2 successes

These keep the affects of TN mathematical the same if the manoeuver was done with 10 dice. e.g. when throwing 10 dice against a TN of 7, you will on average get 1 less success than if you were throwing against a TN of 6, 2 less success if you were throwing with TN8 against TN 6 etc. It begins to change when you get above 10cp e.g. when you get to 20 dice mathematically the bonus/penalty successes would be double those on the table above. But I am not so concerned with that, as it actually makes these higher TN's somehwat less prohibitive to a good fighter who is able to use so many CPs - it sort of brings Tn5 and Tn's 7+ weapons slightly closer to TN6 when rolling more dice than 10. Obviously, it slightly increases the benefits/penalties if rolling less than 10 dice, but again I don't have a problem with this, as you are only talking 0.5 of a success on average if you went down to a 5 dice manoeuver.


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Iorwerth wrote:
...My solution to this is to go for a universal TN6 for all combat, something I wanted to do anyway. To account for the differences in TN, the weapon's TN gives a penalty or bonus in the manoeuver, in the form of additional automatic successes or success penalties that are subtracted from the final MOS:

Tn5: +1 auto success
Tn6: no change
Tn7: -1 successes
Tn8: -2 successes


Ouch! The Fumble chance on TN8 weapons! Even rolling 10 dice the chance of rolling 0, 1, or 2 successes is 38%, and rolling one or more 1s is 65%. I'm assuming of course that a fumble requires 0 successes and rolling one or more 1s.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:30 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Ouch! The Fumble chance on TN8 weapons! Even rolling 10 dice the chance of rolling 0, 1, or 2 successes is 38%, and rolling one or more 1s is 65%. I'm assuming of course that a fumble requires 0 successes and rolling one or more 1s.
I think you're getting it wrong. He uses TN6 for all weapons, but if the original rules state TN8, that weapon always loses 2 successes. Rollin 10 dice at TN6 has pretty good chances of rolling 3+ successes, no?

Also, I've been thinking on another issue -- do you add the Hard Armour Extra Damage bonus to the attack roll as well, or just count it as armour cutter?

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:41 pm 
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I was imagining that specific armour bonuses would just count for armour penetration.

As for the odds, as Higgins pointed out, they should be the same for 10 dice at Tn8, or 10 dice at TN6 with a 2 success penalty. The difference would be when you get more than 10 dice, in which case the chances of getting a fumble will be less than they are currently in Tros, but if you have less than 10 dice the chance would be greater of getting a fumble than in Tros. This might be a problem, or might not really matter that much - the chance of getting 3 successes (need at least 3 successes to counteract the automatic -2 successes in the mod to avoid the chance of a fumble) at TN of 6 with 5 dice is 50%. The chances of getting 1 success at TN8 with 5 dice is 83.2%. However, the chance of rolling two 1's (the amount needed for a fumble chance) in a 5 dice roll is only 8.1 %, so it is only rising a bit:

The chance of a fumble for 5 dice:
With TN 0f 8 = 1.36% (i.e. only 16.8% of the time when you roll 2 ones do you fail to also get 1+ successes)
Using universal TN6 with 2 penalty successes for Tn8 weapon = 4.05% ((i.e. 50% of the time when you roll 2 ones do you fail to also get 3+ successes (need 3 + to counteract the minus 2 success penalty)

Is this too big a fumble % with Universal TN of 6?


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:06 pm 
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Just shows to me that the tougher weapons to weild need better training if you are not going to cut your limbs off.

Any chance when you finish playing around with this, you could post a consolidated version.
I really like this idea, from a GM's point of veiw, as I have found stating up, maneuvers and weapons very time consuming in this game.

Thanks
Allan


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:36 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Ouch! The Fumble chance on TN8 weapons! Even rolling 10 dice the chance of rolling 0, 1, or 2 successes is 38%, and rolling one or more 1s is 65%. I'm assuming of course that a fumble requires 0 successes and rolling one or more 1s.


higgins wrote:
I think you're getting it wrong.


Oops, my goof.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:46 am 
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Iorwerth wrote:
The chance of a fumble for 5 dice:
With TN 0f 8 = 1.36% (i.e. only 16.8% of the time when you roll 2 ones do you fail to also get 1+ successes)
Using universal TN6 with 2 penalty successes for Tn8 weapon = 4.05% ((i.e. 50% of the time when you roll 2 ones do you fail to also get 3+ successes (need 3 + to counteract the minus 2 success penalty)

Is this too big a fumble % with Universal TN of 6?


Something doesn't seem quite right about these probability calcs.

The chance of a fumble with 5 dice, TN8, is 1x1x7x7x7x(5down2)/100000, which equals 3.43%. The "5down2" is the number of combinations of the pair of 1's with the other dice, and equals 10.

The chance of a fumble with 5 dice, TN6, minus 2 successes, is a little trickier to calculate. There is 1x1x10x10x10x(5down2)/100000 = 10% chance to roll two 1's with five dice. There is a 1x1x5x5x5x(5down2)/100000 = 1.25% chance of rolling two 1's and 3 successes, as all three remaining dice would have to roll higher than 6. So, the chance of rolling two 1's and two or less successes would be 10% - 1.25% = 8.75%. Pretty big.

Feel free to point out the glaring flaws in my early Saturday morning pre-coffee fuzzy logic. But I think that's right?

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:43 am 
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Cogs42 wrote:
Feel free to point out the glaring flaws in my early Saturday morning pre-coffee fuzzy logic. But I think that's right?


Dammit, I knew I should have had the coffee first. It's even trickier than that. I didn't ensure that each of the die rolls were mutually exclusive.

The chance of a fumble with 5 dice, TN8, is the chance of rolling two 1's plus no 8+, plus the chance of rolling three 1's plus no 8+, plus the chance of rolling four 1's plus no 8+, plus the chance of rolling five 1's. Each of these needs to be calculated out. For example, the chance of rolling exactly two 1's and 2-7 on the three other dice is 1x1x6x6x6x(5down2)/100000 = 2.16%. Calculating these out, I get 2.16+0.36+0.03+0.001 = 2.551%, not 3.43% as I claimed earlier.

I'm reasonably confident with this, because if you calculate the compliment (ie. the chance of rolling no 1's or one 1 and no successes), it all adds up to 16.8%. And the chance of at least one success is 83.2%.

The chance of rolling at least two 1's on five dice is 8.146% (calculated using the same approach), not 10%.

The chance of rolling two 1's and three successes at TN6, that is, two 1's and three 6-10's, is still 1*1*5*5*5*(5down2)/100000 = 1.25%. I got that one right.

So the chance of fumbling with 5 dice, TN6, minus two successes, is 8.146 - 1.25 = 6.9%. Still a lot larger than 2.55%.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:27 am 
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aprewett wrote:
Just shows to me that the tougher weapons to weild need better training if you are not going to cut your limbs off.

Any chance when you finish playing around with this, you could post a consolidated version.
I really like this idea, from a GM's point of veiw, as I have found stating up, maneuvers and weapons very time consuming in this game.

Thanks
Allan


No problem. Still a bit of a way to go before all the kinks are ironed out.

Cogs42, as to probability, i am no expert and I didn't take inton account the chances of rolling more than 2 ones, nor the fact that every1 subtracts from the chance of a success. The question is, is 6.9% too high of a chance of a botch?

I don't think there is a neat way of bringing it down if you keep the same botch rules but use a universal TN of 6. An inelegant way of doing something about it would be to say that so long as one of the dice thrown is an 8+ then a botch cannot occur, regardless of the fact that with the minus 2 success penalty there were no actual successes - this would then make it the same as standard tros.


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:37 am 
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Iorwerth wrote:
aprewett wrote:
The question is, is 6.9% too high of a chance of a botch?

I don't think there is a neat way of bringing it down if you keep the same botch rules but use a universal TN of 6. An inelegant way of doing something about it would be to say that so long as one of the dice thrown is an 8+ then a botch cannot occur, regardless of the fact that with the minus 2 success penalty there were no actual successes - this would then make it the same as standard tros.


Doesn't sound so inelegant to me, but I'm certainly no expert either. :) 6.9% sounds a little high to me though, so I suggest the botch rules rules would need to be altered, but I don't have any neat suggestions that would deliver similar probabilities to the Core rules. I might fiddle with it some more.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:29 pm 
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Quote:
The first Success counts as far as Botching is concerned, but only the 2nd+ Successes count towards MoS/MoF for the weapons below.

...

The first Success counts as far as Botching is concerned, but only the 3rd+ Successes count towards MoS/MoF for the weapons below.

...


It's a bit awkward. It might be easier to say...

Quote:
A Botch is rolled if two 1s and no roll over 7 are rolled for the weapons below.

...

A Botch is rolled if two 1s and no roll over 6 are rolled for the weapons below.

...


Either way the player has to note the Botch number for the weapon -- either in number of Successes or the original TRoS TN.

Doesn't feel very elegant though.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:44 am 
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Iorwerth, putting aside the botch roll for a moment, are you sure the fixed TN6 is going to have the effect you want? The odds aren't really the same when you compare 10 dice / TN8 / 1 success to 10 dice / TN6 / 3 successes. They are quite similar for that specific example, but diverge seriously as the number of dice goes down or as the TN goes up. (Increasing the number of successes has an odd effect, too.)

(image upload fixed - I think)
Image

This approach might work okay when combined with your strength mod - I'm not experienced enough with the game to be able to say.

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