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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Thanks for the info - very informative. It looks clear that the universal Tn of 6 doesn't really pan out if you have negative success levels or penalty dice attached to the weapon. If you went for bonus dice eg. Tn 10 gives you none, Tn 9 +2, Tn 8 +4, TN 7 +6, Tn 6 +8 etc, I still think it causes problems, as it will lead to too big a dice modifier, especially when you are doing a manoeuver with only a few dice assigned to it - the weapon would give a bonus that would overshadow the actual dice used for the attack.

i.e.. if a TN6 sword gave you + 8 dice, then that is going to be the the dominant factor when your Cp is low. In addition, it will seriously inflate the amount of dice you have to throw.

So, it looks like a universal TN of 6 is a non-starter if you want to keep true to Tros probablities, which we do, otherwise it would be just too big a re-write of Tros. After all, this is a mod for Tros and not to do with EOS.

So variable weapon TN's will need to stay.

One thing I can't decide on is if Strength/Brawn bonus and weapon damage modifier should apply to evasions. My initial idea was that it does not, as evade is not a strength manoeuver. However, it does seem a little strange that having an advantage in strength/brawn wouldn't increase the chances of doing damage to the opponent if he evades. What i think might be good is if your weapon modifier always applies in full as bonus dice, but that Strength/Brawn only applies to the attacker if the attacker is the one with the bonus i.e. if the defender has better strength/Brawn then he does not get a bonus to his evade. Not sure really. Perhaps any bonus to the attacker would only count for half when against an evade? This idea of a halved bonus could then also apply to a thrust attack and a parry - thrust because strength/brawn is not such a large factor as it is in a cut or bash, and as parry is trying to deflect a blow rather than block it, strength again is not such a big factor. On a side note, this might be interesting for bucklers, as they were used more to deflect a blow than to actually block it.

In one way it would seem simplier to just add the difference in strength/brawn to the CP, similiar to what Higgins suggested. All you then need to do is determine who has the bonus and then add the bonus to the cp - nice and simple, even if it would then impact on manoeuvers like toss and evade. However, this would get complicated when you are fighting more than one opponent, so i think it is better that it works as a modifier to manoeuvers, rather than a straight dice bonus to the cp. If you are doing that, then it is not really difficult to classify some manoeuvers as benfiting and some not.

My gut feeling at the moment is that it should not apply to the Toss manoeuver, but should apply to the evade if the bonus is in the attacker's favour, though halved, so that if you are stronger than your opponent it does help you to do damage against an evader, but not as much as if the defender tried to block your blow. The weapon modifier should probably always apply to the attacker in full, regardless of whether they have more strength/brawn than the defender.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:35 am 
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Iorwerth wrote:
So variable weapon TN's will need to stay.
But what about exploding dice?

TN5 - reroll 9s and 10s
TN6 - reroll 10s
TN7 - no rerolls
TN8 - no rerolls and 1s subtract from successes

Having suggested that idea, I need to confess that I very much prefer the finality of the CP, as the exploding dice make the number of successes less predictable and thus emphasize luck over player skill.

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:15 am 
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Interesting idea. I suppose that TN9 would give no rerolls and subtract successes on a 1 and 2, while TN10 would subtract on 1-3.

I would imagine that this would not mirror the Tros odds with variable TNs. I am not sure how much this really matters, as the Tros odds are not necessarily perfect anyway. I have always quite liked the idea of exploding dice anyway, so this does have an appeal for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:50 am 
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Another way of doing it would be to have all attacks have exploding dice on 10 (which I like) and have weapons differentiated on the ability to re-roll certain results.

e.g.
TN5: Can re-roll 2 dice that have come up failures, but not 1s
TN6: Can re-roll 1 dice that has come up a failure, but not 1s
TN7: No re-roll of any dice
TN8: Has to re-roll 1 dice that came up a success, though not 10's
TN9: Has to re-roll 2 dice that came up a success, though not 10's
TN10: Has to re-roll 3 dice that came up a success, though not 10's

An advantage in strength would then not add dice to your pool but would just allow a re-roll of a failure, one re-roll per strength point advantage. Weapon damage modifiers would work in a similiar way:

e.g.
-2 WD: Has to re-roll 2 dice that came up a success, though not 10's
-1 WD: Has to re-roll 1 dice that came up a success, though not 10's
0 WD : no effect
+1 WD: Can re-roll 1 dice that has come up a failure, but not 1s
+2 WD: Can re-roll 2 dice that has come up a failure, but not 1s
+3 WD: Can re-roll 3 dice that has come up a failure, but not 1s
+4 WD: Can re-roll 4 dice that has come up a failure, but not 1s

This has the advantage of not adding dice to a roll but has the disadvantage of slowing things down slightly, as there would be a number of re-rolls - though not by a lot.

So, for example, a cut from a tn6 sword that does str+1 in Tros, where the attacker has 2 more strength points than the opponent, would give the following:
1 failure re-roll from the TN
1 failure re-roll from the weapon damage modifier
2 failure re-rolls from the strength advantage
for a grand total of 4 possible re-rolls for dice that have come up failures, so long as they are not 1s.

A re-roll can still result in a failure, which could be re-rolled again if you still had re-rolls available. The same for success re-rolls.


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Moving away from how TN's translate into a universal TN for a bit, what I am thinking for the strength mod at the moment is as follows:

1. Any attack that utilizes the attacker's strength can generate a bonus for the attacker if he has a strength advantage over the opponent. The attacker's strength is based on strength plus the weapon modifier i.e. exactly the same as it is in Tros currently. eg. If you have 5 strength and are using a weapon that does damage STr+1, then the attacker's strength is considered 6.

2. Subtracting the defender's strength from the attacker's total gives the attacker's total bonus. If the attacker does not have more strength than the opponent, then there is no bonus at all, and strength does not modifiy the rolls at all.

3. The attacker's total bonus, if any, is halved (rounded up) if one or both of the following factors are in play:
i. If the attacker thrusts with a 1 handed weapon;
ii. The defender uses an evade manoeuver or a parry.

4. Each +1 of the attacker's bonus allows the attacker to re-roll one dice that has come up a failure on the attack roll, though no 1's can be re-rolled.


Toughness in this mod has no affect on anything. In fact toughness no longer exists as a stat. Instead, a person's toughness is just a combination of their health stat and their will power - the higher those are the longer you can stand up to bloodloss and withstand the shock and pain of wounds - that is a measure of your toughness, not a seperate toughness stat. For creatures that have skin tougher than humans e.g. tough hide, scales etc, they have a natural AV instead.


A Shield Mod:

This uses the notion of refused stances. It operates as follows:

1. If the defender uses a Block manoeuver with his shield then he is considerd to be in a refused stance. This means that his body is angled slightly so that his shield side is closest to the attacker.

2. A defender in a refused stance can use his shield as passive AV for a number of locations, depending on the size of the shield. These location benefit from the shield's AV if a blow gets through the shield block. If the defender uses any other type of manoeuver then he is considered to have come out of refused stance, and has far less passive defence from his shield, the locations covered depending on the size of shield he is using.

Shield Types and Passive Defence Size:

1. Buckler - a buckler is not used to block, only to parry, as its purpose is to deflect blows, not block them. Therefore, a combatant using a buckler is never considered to be in a refused stance. A Buckler always provides passive protection to the Hand and forearm.

2. Small Shield - when used in refused stance the shield provides passive protection to the arm, but not the shoulder; the chest; the abdomen; and ribcage. When not in refused stance it provides passive defence to these same locations, but only from blows coming in from his shield side i.e. not strikes from his weapon side or from thrusts.

3.Medium Shield - when used in refused stance the shield provides the same passive protection as a small shield, but also the shoulder, pelvis and thigh. When not in refused stance it provides passive defence to these same locations, but only from blows coming in from his shield side i.e. not strikes from his weapon side or from thrusts.

4. Large Shield - As medium, but also the knee and the shin. When not in refused stance it provides passive defence to these same locations, but only from blows coming in from his shield side i.e. not strikes from his weapon side or from thrusts.

Thinking about allowing the attacker to benefit from a shield's passive resistance when they attack while keeping the refused stance. This could only be done with thrusting attacks and the attacker suffers a penalty to the attack. Not sure what this would be - either they would halve again any strength bonus (as they cannot put their full wieght into the blow from a refused stance) or they suffer a straight penalty of having to re-roll 'x' amount of successes they got on their roll, where 'x' is probably in the region of range 1 to 4 re-rolls.

Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:20 am 
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Slight change to the strength mod, so that thrusting weapons don't lose half of their weapon bonus.

1. Any attack that utilizes the attacker's strength can generate a bonus for the attacker if he has a strength advantage over the opponent.

2. Subtracting the defender's strength from the attacker's strength gives the attacker's bonus. If the attacker does not have more strength than the opponent, then there is no bonus at all, and strength does not modifiy the rolls at all.

3. The attacker's bonus, if any, is halved (rounded up) if one or both of the following factors are in play:
i. If the attacker thrusts with a 1 handed weapon;
ii. The defender uses an evade manoeuver or a parry.

4. Each +1 of the attacker's bonus allows the attacker to re-roll one dice that has come up a failure on the attack roll, though no 1's can be re-rolled.

5. The weapon damage bonus (the + or - modifier to strength in Tros) then adjusts the attacker's bonus. Each +1 adds one more re-roll. Each -1 subtracts one re-roll. If a weapon's negative reduces the attacker's bonus to below 0, then each -1 causes a success to have to be re-rolled, though not 10's.


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Moving back to the topic of a universal TN of 6 - Higgins, you have stated that a lot of the problems with FOB have been to do with having a large number of TN8+ - would it be bad if these higher TN's were slightly less detrimental? There has been talk about moving Eos to a d12 or even higher, which would change the effects of these Tns anyway. If the effects of high TNs were lessened, would that matter for Duck&Weave i.e. would it make it too powerful? Also, do you normallt bring back D&W to TN8, as suggested in one of the supplements, or do you keep it at TN9?


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Iorwerth wrote:
Moving back to the topic of a universal TN of 6...


Not for combat -- TNs will vary in combat, but will be static for non-combat checks.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 5:59 am 
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This thread is about my mod, not EOS. I am toying with having a universal TN in combat and want to hear more about the higher TN problems in FOB etc. Part of the reason for this is to determine whether it is important to keep the same balance of penalties for higher TNs as there is in Tros i.e. does it matter if the penalty for using a weapon at TN8 was statistically less important than it would be in Tros proper, which is part of the reason I mentioned Duck&weave.

So, for example, you could have a simple system where a TN5 weapon gets you 2 extra dice, TN6 gets you one more, TN7 stays as normal, TN8 has a penalty of 1 dice etc. This would make the difference between weapons less important statistically than in Tros and would also make it so the more CPs you put into a manoeuver the less of an effect these modifiers have. I am not actually advocating that system, but am trying to get some info on how important peoplke think these TN differences are and whether they think they have too high an impact in Tros at the moment - Higgins has a couple of times talked about how the TNs in FOB are often too high, and I just want to explore that a little.


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 8:10 am 
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Iorwerth wrote:
This thread is about my mod, not EOS.


Indeed, your thread is about 'strength effects in the dice pool'. It is a TRoS mod. Asking Higgins about universal TN seemed to imply his application of universal TN in EoS. Apologies for misunderstanding that you were talking about TRoS rather than EoS.

Iorwerth wrote:
I am toying with having a universal TN in combat and want to hear more about the higher TN problems in FOB etc.


This has been explored at length in other threads, particularly:



Iorwerth wrote:
So, for example, you could have a simple system where a TN5 weapon gets you 2 extra dice, TN6 gets you one more, TN7 stays as normal, TN8 has a penalty of 1 dice etc. This would make the difference between weapons less important statistically than in Tros and would also make it so the more CPs you put into a manoeuver the less of an effect these modifiers have. I am not actually advocating that system, but am trying to get some info on how important peoplke think these TN differences are and whether they think they have too high an impact in Tros at the moment - Higgins has a couple of times talked about how the TNs in FOB are often too high, and I just want to explore that a little.


What is the underlying design purpose for revising this rule? What are you trying to accomplish?

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:16 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
This thread is about my mod, not EOS.


Indeed, your thread is about 'strength effects in the dice pool'. It is a TRoS mod. Asking Higgins about universal TN seemed to imply his application of universal TN in EoS. Apologies for misunderstanding that you were talking about TRoS rather than EoS.


No problem - I didn't want to get caught up in the whole EOS thing, where there are often a number of competing veiws. I just want to come up with some vaguely simple mods to tros to get rid of some of the kinks that I don't like much.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
I am toying with having a universal TN in combat and want to hear more about the higher TN problems in FOB etc.


This has been explored at length in other threads, particularly:



Thnaks for giving me the link - what an excellent thread! Shame it stopped there as I would have loved to have seen his stats for axes, maces, spears etc. Did he ever post up all the weapon stats in a document?

Ian.Plumb wrote:
What is the underlying design purpose for revising this rule? What are you trying to accomplish?

Regards,


In relation tyo a universal TN, just to try and simplify things if I could. I am not against variable TNs in combat, but like the idea of everything working off a TN6 if possible. I am not sure it is easily done though, so may well end up just keeping the variable weapon TNs. As to the strength mod itself, it is aimed at getting rid of Tros' St v To mechanic and replacing it with something that allows strength to figure into the equation without it becoming overpowerful or negating the chances of getting simple mos 1 wounds.


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:32 pm 
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Iorwerth wrote:
Thnaks for giving me the link - what an excellent thread! Shame it stopped there as I would have loved to have seen his stats for axes, maces, spears etc. Did he ever post up all the weapon stats in a document?


No, that's all there is -- but you can see how Michael was differentiating the weapons...

Ian.Plumb wrote:
What is the underlying design purpose for revising this rule? What are you trying to accomplish?


Iorwerth wrote:
In relation to a universal TN, just to try and simplify things if I could. I am not against variable TNs in combat, but like the idea of everything working off a TN6 if possible.


It'll look and feel like 'WoD, but with manoeuvres'.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:25 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:

Iorwerth wrote:
In relation to a universal TN, just to try and simplify things if I could. I am not against variable TNs in combat, but like the idea of everything working off a TN6 if possible.


It'll look and feel like 'WoD, but with manoeuvres'.


Not that it really matters, but I would argue that there is more difference than just manoeuvers and variable TNs between Tros and WoD - the damage system, for one, as well as the Spiritual Attributes. Any similarity would only be superficial i.e. they both use dice pools and both would have a universal TN.

Going back to Michael's weapon stats, it is interesting that he went for dice penalties on some weapons, which is the direction I have been exploring recently for a universal TN. A combination of dice penalties/bonuses and armour modifiers for different types of blows might be the best route to achive a universal TN in combat. For example, Michael gave his longsax a defence TN of 6 but made it lose 1 dice, whereas Tros gives it a defence TN of 7. He gave the sidesword an extra dice when thrusting etc. So, for example, you could have a system similiar to the following:

Tn5: instead gives +1d at Tn6.
Tn6: stays Tn6
Tn7: loses 1 dice at TN6
Tn8: loses 2 dice at Tn6
Tn9: loses 3 dice at Tn6
Tn10:loses 4 dice at Tn6

The dice loss for Tn 9&10 are pretty steep, but weapons with such high TNs would probably not be being used (or you could rule that most of the weapons with those types of TNs were too high anyway, and just bring them down slightly).

As I have mentioned before, the problem I see with this type of thing is not so much the weapons (as many of the high TNs seen in FOB seem to have been disliked anyway) but some of the manoeuvers which use high TNs - Duck&Weave, for example, with its TN of 9. If this became instead a TN6 manoeuver with a 3 dice penalty, would that be a steep enough penalty? I am not experienced enough with Tros to really know whether it would be. What do you think?

The other potential drawback is that by removing dice you can empty a manoeuver of dice if you are operating on low dice levels. There is another thread around here somewhere where this was discussed and there are various ways around the problem, so I am not sure how much of a game breaker it really is.

The other option is obviously to keep variable Tns in combat and then just work on the weapons to try and smooth off the rough edges, as Michael did, perhaps even extrapolate out his system for the other weapons, but that does seem a lot of work, where going for a universal TN and dice bonuses/penalties based off the current weapon TNs (in FOB or Tros normal) would be simpler, though now having had a closer look at FOB weapon stats, I can see why so many dislike them - perhaps the dice penalty will make the TN disparities less debiliatating, as they have half the effect of a TN point.


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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:31 pm 
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Iorwerth wrote:
Going back to Michael's weapon stats, it is interesting that he went for dice penalties on some weapons, which is the direction I have been exploring recently for a universal TN. A combination of dice penalties/bonuses and armour modifiers for different types of blows might be the best route to achive a universal TN in combat. For example, Michael gave his longsax a defence TN of 6 but made it lose 1 dice, whereas Tros gives it a defence TN of 7. He gave the sidesword an extra dice when thrusting etc.


The reason for doing this is the high-stepping nature of the TN mechanic. (TN6 with + 1 dice) is the equivalent of saying, statistically, that the chance of being successful lies between TN 6 and TN 5. So is (TN6 + 2 dice). At (TN6 + 3 dice) we get close to TN5. Of course, being a dice pool game, this doesn't hold true at the extremes but in the bulk of cases it's close enough.

You could also use (TN 6 +/- 1 Success) to play with the probabilities in a different way.

Iorwerth wrote:
Tn5: instead gives +1d at Tn6.
Tn6: stays Tn6
Tn7: loses 1 dice at TN6
Tn8: loses 2 dice at Tn6
Tn9: loses 3 dice at Tn6
Tn10:loses 4 dice at Tn6


You could do that but the probabilities will be completely different to TRoS.

Iorwerth wrote:
As I have mentioned before, the problem I see with this type of thing is not so much the weapons (as many of the high TNs seen in FOB seem to have been disliked anyway) but some of the manoeuvers which use high TNs - Duck&Weave, for example, with its TN of 9. If this became instead a TN6 manoeuver with a 3 dice penalty, would that be a steep enough penalty? I am not experienced enough with Tros to really know whether it would be. What do you think?


Personally I wouldn't head down this path. At TN9, Duck and Weave doesn't get used even when the player has a high CP amped with SAs unless they specifically want to take a risk. At (TN6 - 3 dice) it would become a manoeuvre of choice -- 3 dice is a small penalty to pay for the advantage conferred when you have a large CP compared to your opponent.

Iorwerth wrote:
... where going for a universal TN and dice bonuses/penalties based off the current weapon TNs (in FOB or Tros normal) would be simpler ...


If the design goal here is 'like TRoS, but simpler' then this is the way to go. If the deign goal is 'like TRoS, but more realistic' then perhaps variable TN is the way to go.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Strength effects in the dice pool
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:37 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
The reason for doing this is the high-stepping nature of the TN mechanic. (TN6 with + 1 dice) is the equivalent of saying, statistically, that the chance of being successful lies between TN 6 and TN 5. So is (TN6 + 2 dice). At (TN6 + 3 dice) we get close to TN5. Of course, being a dice pool game, this doesn't hold true at the extremes but in the bulk of cases it's close enough.

You could also use (TN 6 +/- 1 Success) to play with the probabilities in a different way.


I have made multiple posts exploring these kinds of options - from using auto successes and failures to differentiate between Tns, to bonus/penalty dice (statistically roughly 2 dice per TN difference, though this does break down when you move away from a 10 dice pool), to a combination of the two of them. What I think is interesting is Michael's move towards bringing all weapon Tns into the 5-7 range, coupled with additional dice costs for certain types of attacks/defences, as well as differing armour modifiers. This seems a sensible way to go to me. Now, going down that route but adding a universal weapon TN 0f 6 would just be a matter of having a weapon with a tn of 5 gaining one auto success and a weapon with a TN of 7 losing one success, then you just utilize Michael's dice bonus/penalties on top. Obviously, Michael's system of bringing down some of the high TNs into the 5-7 TN range would alter the odds of using some weapons, but then this is deliberate as the TNs in FOB for many weapons were very problematic anyway. At the moment, this to me seems the best way of proceeding for my mod, even if it does entail re-working all the weapons.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
As I have mentioned before, the problem I see with this type of thing is not so much the weapons (as many of the high TNs seen in FOB seem to have been disliked anyway) but some of the manoeuvers which use high TNs - Duck&Weave, for example, with its TN of 9. If this became instead a TN6 manoeuver with a 3 dice penalty, would that be a steep enough penalty? I am not experienced enough with Tros to really know whether it would be. What do you think?


Personally I wouldn't head down this path. At TN9, Duck and Weave doesn't get used even when the player has a high CP amped with SAs unless they specifically want to take a risk. At (TN6 - 3 dice) it would become a manoeuvre of choice -- 3 dice is a small penalty to pay for the advantage conferred when you have a large CP compared to your opponent.


I agree with you here. To make these types of manoeuvers fit into a universal Tn is more problematic than with weapons in my opinion. What I think I would have to do is use the auto-failure system, so that a TN9 would cancel out 3 successes. This would make it statistically the same as TN9 if the dice pool used was 10 dice. It obviously makes getting a lucky when you have fewer dice harder, and conversely makes getting lucky easier if you have greater than 10 dice assigned to the manoeuver, but I think I can live with that as well.

Out of interest, do you use Duck&weave at TN9 or at TN8 (I believe there was an optional rule in one of the supplements to bring it down to TN8)?


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