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 Post subject: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:35 am 
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Are there any mods out there for handling blunt trauma? From what I have read, mail was very difficult to cut through, especially with padding underneath, let alone cutting through plate armour. However, even if the blow didn't cut through the armour it could still cause considerable damage through the blunt trauma, but this is not modelled in Tros.

Also, is a successful bludgeoning attack dishing out blunt trauma? If it is, then it would imply that, inTros, if a bludgeoning attack doesn't penetrate the armour there is no blunt trauma at all. If that is the case, then armour AVs against Bludgeoning attacks probably wants to be quite a lot lower I would think.

In addition, I have read that for Plate armour, even if a blow did not get through it could bend some of the plate articulation pieces which could severly limit movement. If this were somehow modelled in Tros I would presume this would be increased CP penalties for the armour.


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:22 pm 
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Perhaps for blunt trauma the easiest thing to do is say that all non-bludgeon weapons have blundgeon damage of Str when striking, like a 1h club, and Str-1 when thrusting, like a quarterstaff . If the cut/thrust does not penetrate the cut/pierce AV of the armour, it can still do damage if the MOS exceeds the Bludgeon AV of the armour, using the Bludgeoning wound tables. So something like a sword can do cutting damage if it exceeds the Cut AV of the armour, but if it does not it can do bashing damage if it exceeds the armour's Bludgeoning AV.

This would require that Armours have different AV's for Cut, Thrust and Bludgeon attacks, but I think they need them anyway to be more realistic.

There are a few problems with this, though:

1. You might have a cutting blow that does pierce the armour, but only by a Mos of 1. However, if the bludgeoning Av of the armour is less (which it would be no doubt) then it would do a higher level wound on the bludgeoning table. Not sure how to deal with this at the moment. Perhaps for Blunt trauma the MOS is adjusted down slightly? This would be slightly odd, though, as why does it adjust down for a strike from a sword, but not from a strike from a 1h club, for example?

2. In addition, some weapons would be more likely to do blunt trauma than others e.g. a longsword would probably do more blunt trauma than a dagger. So you may need some table giving you the blunt trauma modifier for the weapon, though the scale you have would need to be narrow, as you don't want it better than a mace (str+1), nor worse than a fist (str-2b). You may also want to give a bonus to weapons classified as heavy.

3. Lastly, if used in conjuction with my strength mod, I would have to refigure slightly how the weapon damage modifiers work in that mod.


Another possible system is to have blunt trauma work as shock/pain. So, for example, blunt trauma would give shock equal to the MOS of the blow minus the target's WP. While this may be simple, it lacks any real finesse and it does not allow for broken bones etc, nor does it differentiate between locations, which blunt trauma needs to do. This is the reason I intially rejected going down this path - it just seemed better to use the actual bludgeoning wound tables in Tros somehow, rather than have some abstract system.


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:17 am 
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Iorwerth wrote:
1. You might have a cutting blow that does pierce the armour, but only by a Mos of 1. However, if the bludgeoning Av of the armour is less (which it would be no doubt) then it would do a higher level wound on the bludgeoning table.
You mean that wound can either be cutting or bludgeoning and so, having actually cut through the armour, the blow deals less damage than it would have dealt bludgeoning damage only?

From my EoS pre-alpha point of view... well, I don't think that this is an issue. If you have a sword you cannot "choose" to use the lesser blunt AV as you're not using a dedicated mass weapon. Sure, if you'd be holding a mace, you'd do a lot of damage, but since you hold a sword, your MoS and DR are compared to the higher cutting AV, and then converted into blunt damage. My rules also have damage caps, meaning that some of the tougher armours limit the amount of possible trauma received with non-mass weapons, meaning that for a person wearing maille:
- it is impossible to deliver a cutting wound unless you find a gap in the maille (go for shins, etc)
- it is impossible to deliver level 4&5 blunt wounds with a regular cutting action
- punctures are viable all the way
- mass weapons are viable all the way, and in general, deal +2 levels of blunt trauma compared to the swords

Iorwerth wrote:
2. In addition, some weapons would be more likely to do blunt trauma than others e.g. a longsword would probably do more blunt trauma than a dagger. So you may need some table giving you the blunt trauma modifier for the weapon, though the scale you have would need to be narrow, as you don't want it better than a mace (str+1), nor worse than a fist (str-2b). You may also want to give a bonus to weapons classified as heavy.
I haven't bothered with that, but some weapons will have special abilities, such as axe enabling level 4&5 blunt wounds due its mass, despite being a cutting weapon. Or it would use the blunt AV, not sure yet.

Iorwerth wrote:
3. Lastly, if used in conjuction with my strength mod, I would have to refigure slightly how the weapon damage modifiers work in that mod.
You would? Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:36 am 
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higgins wrote:
You mean that wound can either be cutting or bludgeoning and so, having actually cut through the armour, the blow deals less damage than it would have dealt bludgeoning damage only?


Yes, that is what I meant. It just seems a little starnge that you might do a more fearsome wound if you don't penetrate the armour than if you do, which seems counter-intuiative to me. Not sure how to get around it though - perhaps have a cutting weapon do both might be the solution e.g. a sword that has an MOS of 1 for the cut but would have an MOS of 2 for the blunt truama, does a level 1 cutting wound and a level 2 bashing wound. However, this may cause problems when you hit an opponent without armour, so may not be that good of a solution.

As to your EOS pre-alpha, I do like some of those things. Capping blunt truama from non mass weapons at level 3 seems sensible. I presume that mass weapons are those that have bludgeon damage as their main attack? Also, are you giving a straight +2 blunt trauam to all mass weapons, including thrusts from a staff etc?

As for cutting weapons being unable to deliver cuts unless you find the gap in the maille, I would just have that working as per normal TRos on the maille AV v Cut I.e. if you beat the maille's cut AV then you have found a gap of some sort - the higher you beat it by, the more your blow has taken advantage of the gap. I know you could say that some areas covered by the maille don't have gaps, but some maille might have weaknesses as they are not always of the same quality I would imagine and also suffer from wear and tear, plus the position of the body and how set it is may well help some cuts to penetrate. I have read that the tests done on maille penetration may well have flaws to them, as they cannot accurately model the body, nor adrenalin of the attacker etc. Either way, from a gamer's perspective, I would allow the possibility of cutting through maille in any location, though it will be hard - I am contemplating raising the Av's of some armours anyway, which will make it much harder to cut through.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
3. Lastly, if used in conjuction with my strength mod, I would have to refigure slightly how the weapon damage modifiers work in that mod.
You would? Why?


Only because the weapon damage modifiers differ for different types of attacks. However, it probably isn't such a big deal anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:17 pm 
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Iorwerth wrote:
It just seems a little starnge that you might do a more fearsome wound if you don't penetrate the armour than if you do, which seems counter-intuiative to me.
I don't think that is the case in my pre-alpha. Is it?

Iorwerth wrote:
I presume that mass weapons are those that have bludgeon damage as their main attack?
I divide the attacks by damage type, then add special properties to weapons such as axe which is a cutting weapon, but due its heavy mass, is a better bone breaker than your regular sword.

Iorwerth wrote:
Also, are you giving a straight +2 blunt trauam to all mass weapons, including thrusts from a staff etc?
That was a generalisation to make you see the design principle. I you look at my plate armour for example, it has a cutting AV of 7 and a damage cap of 2b, and with heavy padding it has a blunt AV of 5. So, (discounting Stamina) to deliver a level 2 blunt wound with a sword, you'd need a final attack value of 9, seven is subtracted, two remains, however, with a blunt weapon such as staff, you'd need a final attack value of 7, five is subtracted, two remains.

Iorwerth wrote:
As for cutting weapons being unable to deliver cuts unless you find the gap in the maille, I would just have that working as per normal TRos on the maille AV v Cut I.e. if you beat the maille's cut AV then you have found a gap of some sort - the higher you beat it by, the more your blow has taken advantage of the gap. I know you could say that some areas covered by the maille don't have gaps, but some maille might have weaknesses as they are not always of the same quality I would imagine and also suffer from wear and tear, plus the position of the body and how set it is may well help some cuts to penetrate.
There's a whole thread on this issue: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=527

Iorwerth wrote:
I have read that the tests done on maille penetration may well have flaws to them, as they cannot accurately model the body, nor adrenalin of the attacker etc. Either way, from a gamer's perspective, I would allow the possibility of cutting through maille in any location, though it will be hard - I am contemplating raising the Av's of some armours anyway, which will make it much harder to cut through.
You've probably seen the water bottle cutting tests, right? Check this one out. The bottle is just protected by light leather and the protection it offers against cuts is pretty impressive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHdD_ngUps

In short, my view is -- rusty spots, etc, are an exception rather than a rule. If your destiny SA is firing and you beat the maille AV by more than twice, sure, I'd probably rule a ripped maille case and have you inflict a full cutting wound instead of a blunt one, but in general, armour is sorely misrepresented in RPGs and I want to fix that

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:04 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
It just seems a little starnge that you might do a more fearsome wound if you don't penetrate the armour than if you do, which seems counter-intuiative to me.
I don't think that is the case in my pre-alpha. Is it?


Say the cut Av is 6 and the bludgeon Av is 3. The weapon does a MOS of 7. This would give a wound level of 1 v the cut Av, but 4 against the bludgeon av of 3. That is all I meant.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
I presume that mass weapons are those that have bludgeon damage as their main attack?
I divide the attacks by damage type, then add special properties to weapons such as axe which is a cutting weapon, but due its heavy mass, is a better bone breaker than your regular sword.

In FOB some weapons are rated heavy. Is that what you are talking about?

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
Also, are you giving a straight +2 blunt trauam to all mass weapons, including thrusts from a staff etc?
That was a generalisation to make you see the design principle. I you look at my plate armour for example, it has a cutting AV of 7 and a damage cap of 2b, and with heavy padding it has a blunt AV of 5. So, (discounting Stamina) to deliver a level 2 blunt wound with a sword, you'd need a final attack value of 9, seven is subtracted, two remains, however, with a blunt weapon such as staff, you'd need a final attack value of 7, five is subtracted, two remains.


So, no matter what MOS you get, the maximum damage level you can do is 2. So if, for example, I get a a MOS of 9 with a cut, i get Blvl2, and if I get a MOS of 13 with a cut, I still only get a Blvl2? If this is the case, it seems a bit strange.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
I have read that the tests done on maille penetration may well have flaws to them, as they cannot accurately model the body, nor adrenalin of the attacker etc. Either way, from a gamer's perspective, I would allow the possibility of cutting through maille in any location, though it will be hard - I am contemplating raising the Av's of some armours anyway, which will make it much harder to cut through.
You've probably seen the water bottle cutting tests, right? Check this one out. The bottle is just protected by light leather and the protection it offers against cuts is pretty impressive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmHdD_ngUps


True. But how hard was he actually striking? What was the actual quaility of the weapon? Was the resistance to the blow similiar to that of a man wearing leather? What difference does it make what positon the target was in relation to the strike? etc. Either way, from a gamer perspective, I am not sure I want maille to be impervious to cuts. What I want is for it to be very hard to get through with a cut, but that if you don't you can still do some damage sometimes through blunt trauma.

higgins wrote:
In short, my view is -- rusty spots, etc, are an exception rather than a rule. If your destiny SA is firing and you beat the maille AV by more than twice, sure, I'd probably rule a ripped maille case and have you inflict a full cutting wound instead of a blunt one, but in general, armour is sorely misrepresented in RPGs and I want to fix that


I would agree with that - armour in RPGs is generally under strength and I want a version of Tros to try and be more realistic. What I am not sure I want is a system that says that it is basically impossible to cut through maille. What I want is a system where it is very difficult, but not impossible. From what I have read, it is a leap to say that a sword couldn't ever cut through maille, as the tests that have been done can never really replicate the conditions that existed at the time. If you have a system where you have to beat the AV by twice its value and also cap blunt trauma, you can easily get into a situation where beyond a certain level the MOS ceases to do any good, unless you achieve double the AV. This seems unsatisfactoty to me, but that is just my personal feeling on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:21 pm 
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Iorwerth wrote:
Say the cut Av is 6 and the bludgeon Av is 3. The weapon does a MOS of 7. This would give a wound level of 1 v the cut Av, but 4 against the bludgeon av of 3. That is all I meant.
Yes, but you can't take a sword and say that you're using is as a blunt weapon get the benefit of lower AVs... well, you can in the sense that Murder Strike maneuver does just that, but then you're using the pommel.

Iorwerth wrote:
In FOB some weapons are rated heavy. Is that what you are talking about?
I'm simply saying that an axe is heavier and I'd have the blunt trauma it delivers be more effective than of a light sword.

Iorwerth wrote:
So, no matter what MOS you get, the maximum damage level you can do is 2. So if, for example, I get a a MOS of 9 with a cut, i get Blvl2, and if I get a MOS of 13 with a cut, I still only get a Blvl2? If this is the case, it seems a bit strange.
How is that strange? If you know that your sword cannot cut through several millimeters of steel no matter the MoS, you'll change your tactics (half-sword, grapple, murder strike, using armour piercing weapons), and that's a good thing.

Iorwerth wrote:
Either way, from a gamer perspective, I am not sure I want maille to be impervious to cuts. What I want is for it to be very hard to get through with a cut, but that if you don't you can still do some damage sometimes through blunt trauma. (...) From what I have read, it is a leap to say that a sword couldn't ever cut through maille, as the tests that have been done can never really replicate the conditions that existed at the time.
As much as I understand the weapon and armour development... the maille was a tremendously effective protection as it was used for hundreds of years after all. Only when couched lances appeared, was the maille pierced with regular ease on the battlefield, and people started to think how do make the armour better. If a sword or axe could go through it regularly, surely the plate armour would have appeared much earlier?

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:39 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
Say the cut Av is 6 and the bludgeon Av is 3. The weapon does a MOS of 7. This would give a wound level of 1 v the cut Av, but 4 against the bludgeon av of 3. That is all I meant.
Yes, but you can't take a sword and say that you're using is as a blunt weapon get the benefit of lower AVs... well, you can in the sense that Murder Strike maneuver does just that, but then you're using the pommel.


True. All I am getting at is if you have a situation where if the attacker had got less MOS then they would do more damage, then that seems a bit strange.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
In FOB some weapons are rated heavy. Is that what you are talking about?
I'm simply saying that an axe is heavier and I'd have the blunt trauma it delivers be more effective than of a light sword.


Makes perfect sense.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
So, no matter what MOS you get, the maximum damage level you can do is 2. So if, for example, I get a a MOS of 9 with a cut, i get Blvl2, and if I get a MOS of 13 with a cut, I still only get a Blvl2? If this is the case, it seems a bit strange.
How is that strange? If you know that your sword cannot cut through several millimeters of steel no matter the MoS, you'll change your tactics (half-sword, grapple, murder strike, using armour piercing weapons), and that's a good thing.


Only strange because you are in a situation where getting more MOS does you no good. That seems to break the idea that the higher the MOS, the more damage you will inflict.

higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
Either way, from a gamer perspective, I am not sure I want maille to be impervious to cuts. What I want is for it to be very hard to get through with a cut, but that if you don't you can still do some damage sometimes through blunt trauma. (...) From what I have read, it is a leap to say that a sword couldn't ever cut through maille, as the tests that have been done can never really replicate the conditions that existed at the time.
As much as I understand the weapon and armour development... the maille was a tremendously effective protection as it was used for hundreds of years after all. Only when couched lances appeared, was the maille pierced with regular ease on the battlefield, and people started to think how do make the armour better. If a sword or axe could go through it regularly, surely the plate armour would have appeared much earlier?


I think the difference between us is that I want a system where it is possible to cut through maille. I am not arguing that it should happen regularly. In fact, it should be rare - maybe very rare indeed. What is difficult to get right is a system where you can do blunt trauma if you don't cut through, but that if you do get through the maille you are not penalized because you don't do blunt trauma. I.e. I don't think a system where you actually do more damage if you don't penetrate the armour than if you do is a great system.

If a blow did manage to cut through the maille to a degree, would that negate all the blunt trauma totally in reality?


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:30 am 
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Iorwerth wrote:
Only strange because you are in a situation where getting more MOS does you no good. That seems to break the idea that the higher the MOS, the more damage you will inflict.
All depends circumstances. I mean, you cannot decapitate someone with a peacock feather no matter the MoS as a feather don't cut through skin and tissue.

Iorwerth wrote:
What is difficult to get right is a system where you can do blunt trauma if you don't cut through, but that if you do get through the maille you are not penalized because you don't do blunt trauma. I.e. I don't think a system where you actually do more damage if you don't penetrate the armour than if you do is a great system.

If a blow did manage to cut through the maille to a degree, would that negate all the blunt trauma totally in reality?
No, but regardless of armour mechanics, how would you model that? Two wounds? Blunt wound and a cutting one?

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:51 am 
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higgins wrote:
Iorwerth wrote:
If a blow did manage to cut through the maille to a degree, would that negate all the blunt trauma totally in reality?
No, but regardless of armour mechanics, how would you model that? Two wounds? Blunt wound and a cutting one?


This is what I am struggling with. Blunt trauma is damage done to the body when the skin is not penetrated, causing injuries such as concussions, fractures, and compressions. The term itself refers to the way the injury happened, rather than the nature of the injury itself. So by defintition when you cut someone and break the skin the damage you do is not blunt trauma. However, when you do cut someone I would presume that you can still cause these types of injuries e.g. cut someone in the head and you can concuss them, cut someone on the shin and you can fracture bones etc. So, a cut can do damage similiar to bludgeoning attacks as well as damage unique to the fact that you have pierced the skin and damaged tissue underneath.

Given a wound in Tros is defined by the shock, pain and potential blood loss it causes, perhaps the easiest way of simulating the above is to have the shock, pain and bloodloss caused by the blow being the higher of those shown from the bludgeoning and cut wounds you would have inflicted.

e.g. (don't have the book in front of me at the moment) suppose the bludgeoning attack (capped at level 2?) did shock:5-Wp, Pain: 6-wp and BL=0, while the cut did S:4-Wp, Pain: 3-Wp and BL:2, then the damage caused by the blow would be Shock: 5-Wp, Pain: 6-WP and BL: 2. So you get the best results of both blows without actually adding the shock and pain and bloodloss together.


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:58 pm 
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I can't count you the statistics, but my impression says that the skin piercing damage is worse in general within the same wound level. I mean, most level 2 blunt wounds are nothing major, but level 2 cut & pierce are pretty serious.

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:16 pm 
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It depends on the location, as sometimes bludgeoning damage of the same level is worse than the cut, though cut will have a higher blood loss e.g. foot, hip . In addition, given that bludgeoning AV of armour is going to be lower than the cut AV, most of the time the wound level from the bludgeon will be higher than that of the cut - though that will depend a little on whether you set a cap on blunt trauma damage and what level you set it at.


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:23 pm 
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After having read the thread about armours over on the EOS section I was fiddling around with armour values and then a problem struck me. If you have seperate Av's against cutting and bludgeoning weapons, with bludgeoning generally, or always, being lower, then you create the problem that weapons whose primary offence is bludgeoning will be the best weapons to use against all armours that have a lower bludgeoning AV than Cutting AV. I am not sure that is a good thing. Do we want an armour system that propels combatants to fight with blunt weapons against all kinds of armour? From a gaming point of view my answer would be no - unless you are going to be fighting against unarmoured opponents most of the time, you don't want a player to feel they are making a sub-optimum choice if they use a non-bludgeoning weapon - it just doesn't feel right.

Seems to me that the only way to avoid this is to make the AV of armours the same against cutting and bludgeoning, at least for many, if not all, of the armours. Piercing Av's could be different, though again you would have to be careful not to suddenly make piercing weapons the best armour killers.

Seems to me that you need a set Av for armours against all types of attacks, but that individual weapons gain bonuses or suffer penalties against some types of armours, as is the case in FOB.

Have I missed something here? Is there a flaw in my reasoning somewhere?

If I haven't made a mistake and this is a problem, then this in turn leads again to the problem of how to simulate blunt trauma. Before, with differing AVs against bludgeoning to cutting, you had some manoeuver room to play with, but with the difference gone, how do you do it? I think there needs to be blunt trauma in some form, but am unsure how to simulate it. Any ideas?


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:05 am 
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Current thoughts on blunt trauma (this works with my strength mod, where the MOS is the final result on the blow):

If your blow fails to penetrate the armour you do:

Shock: Mos - Wp
Pain: Mos-wp

Heavy weapons add +1 to the Mos for purposes of Blunt trauma, perhaps even +2.

There is a cap on the amount of Shock and pain you can deliver equal to a level 1 bludgeoning wound for the location you hit.

With this mod blunt trauma only really occurs against heavy armours, as if you fail to penetrate lighter armours then the MOS minus WP is unlikely to get above 0. You could say that if your Mos was equal to the armour AV, then there is a minimum stress + pain level?. In addition, this mod would only allow for level 1 bludgeoning wound trauma, whereas you may want to be able to do higher, but if you do allow the cap to be higher than that of a lvl 1 bludgeoning wound then you run into the problem that you don't want a penetrating level 1 bludgeon attack to do less damage than if it had failed to penetrate and done a blunt trauma.

This is still a work in progress, but thought I would post it up to try and get some feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:09 pm 
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Iorwerth wrote:
Have I missed something here? Is there a flaw in my reasoning somewhere?
My explanation is that most mass weapons suck in their defensive capabilities, so, you definitely need a shield as well... and this basically means a full war gear. So, swords aren't superior to other weapons damage wise, and they're not supposed to be. The benefits of a sword are decent defensive capabilities and number of different maneuvers that aren't available to mass weapons.

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