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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:08 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Can you elaborate on the reasoning?
Ian.Plumb wrote:
Which part?
As I get it, you were suggesting that plate armour should have better bashing AV than piercing AV.

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:19 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Can you elaborate on the reasoning?


Ian.Plumb wrote:
Which part?


higgins wrote:
As I get it, you were suggesting that plate armour should have better bashing AV than piercing AV.


To place the quote in context...

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Firstly, the mace should be -- comparatively -- less effective against padded armour and no armour. ... The AV on these armours should be higher for the mass weapon than the thrusting weapon (though in neither case should it be high of course).


No mention of plate armour.

On the other hand looking at TFoB, which penalises both cutting and bashing weapons against plate in its optional rules, I agree with the underlying logic as explained earlier.

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:46 am 
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Yes, padding has higher blunt AV than piercing AV in my pre-alpha.

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:04 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
If you are not wearing armour a piercing weapon will penetrate the skin and muscle easily as the point of contact is relatively small. The contact point for a mass weapon is relatively large, allowing the muscle to diffuse some of the blow before the bones start breaking. Thus I would give the no armour AV versus mass weapons for humans as being 1 higher than for thrusting weapons -- but in neither case would the AV be high given that full plate armour has an AV of 6.


Does this mean that you intend to give an AV to skin, maybe only against bashing attacks?


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:42 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
If you are not wearing armour a piercing weapon will penetrate the skin and muscle easily as the point of contact is relatively small. The contact point for a mass weapon is relatively large, allowing the muscle to diffuse some of the blow before the bones start breaking. Thus I would give the no armour AV versus mass weapons for humans as being 1 higher than for thrusting weapons -- but in neither case would the AV be high given that full plate armour has an AV of 6.


Iorwerth wrote:
Does this mean that you intend to give an AV to skin, maybe only against bashing attacks?


In EoS? That's up to Higgins.

For myself I see advantages in giving human skin/muscle an AV, removing TO from the wound calc, and modding the wound tables so that wounds that have no real meaning -- the sort that were, in essence, absorbed by the skin/muscle -- are removed. I also see disadvantages, and I think there's a thread on this concept somewhere...

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:53 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
For myself I see advantages in giving human skin/muscle an AV, removing TO from the wound calc, and modding the wound tables so that wounds that have no real meaning -- the sort that were, in essence, absorbed by the skin/muscle -- are removed. I also see disadvantages, and I think there's a thread on this concept somewhere...


Each to their own, but it seems a little odd to me to give AV to skin - after all, it stands for Armour Value :D . I do agree that TO needs to come out of the wound equation, at least in the role it plays currently, which is what my mods are trying to do, both the strength one and this one. As to reworking how wounds are determined, I gave that a go a few posts above but have recieved no feedback back on it, good or bad.

Going back to the idea of certain armours having seperate AV's for differing types of blows (mainly talking about cut and bludgeon here), and keeping it mind that a difference of 2 could well be overpowering, it does seem to me that rather than having differences of 1 AV, it might be better to keep it as it works in tros - all AVs are the same, but different weapons have bonuses against certain types of armours. Not sure really, but I do like that aspect of weapons in Tros so think it might be a shame to throw it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
For myself I see advantages in giving human skin/muscle an AV, removing TO from the wound calc, and modding the wound tables so that wounds that have no real meaning -- the sort that were, in essence, absorbed by the skin/muscle -- are removed. I also see disadvantages, and I think there's a thread on this concept somewhere...


Iorwerth wrote:
Each to their own, but it seems a little odd to me to give AV to skin - after all, it stands for Armour Value :D .


I agree -- like the animals in OBaM, which have a static TO, I would give humans a static TO -- but rename it, so that we still had a TO stat, just one that represented toughness rather than armour. There's a thread on that too.

Iorwerth wrote:
Going back to the idea of certain armours having seperate AV's for differing types of blows (mainly talking about cut and bludgeon here), and keeping it mind that a difference of 2 could well be overpowering, it does seem to me that rather than having differences of 1 AV, it might be better to keep it as it works in tros - all AVs are the same, but different weapons have bonuses against certain types of armours. Not sure really, but I do like that aspect of weapons in Tros so think it might be a shame to throw it out.


IMO, while the the stepping is so large in the game -- whether that be TRoS or a successor -- this detail isn't warranted at all. There's no way you could say that a piece of armour was 20% (or whatever) more likely to stop a blow from an edged attack than it is from a blunt attack -- but that could be the reality, depending on the number of dice allocated to the attack and the AV difference between the armour's rating for those two types of attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 2:49 pm 
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I have been toying with how to do Blood Loss with my new wound system as outlined a number of posts above, but it is basically impossible to have a neat mathematical progression for blood loss that gets close to that found in the Tros wound tables. For the moment I am going to abandon trying to re-write the damage system, as I just want systems to mod Tros and am not trying to come up with some sort of EOS system. This does lead me back to trying have some way of simulating blunt trauma and armour differences, however.

I like the armour penetration modifiers for individual weapons but don't think they can sit side by side with having differing AVs for armours against different types of attacks. For that reason I think I will abandon the idea of having variable AV for armour and just stick with the individual weapon modifiers. Perhaps I might have a look at changing some piercing AVs, but I do feel it is simplier to keep cutting and bludgeoning AVs the same.

I still want cutting attacks to be unable to cut through some armours, though still be capable of doing blunt trauma. I think I will go with Higgins' idea of cuttable and non-cuttable armours. If an armour is non-cuttable then any cut attacks against it do bludgeoning damage instead. Mass weapons would still have an advantage because their bludgeoning attacks will, in almost all cases, be getting a weapon modifier against these types of armours, whereas a cutting weapon generally won't be (using FOB weapon stats, the only sword that gets a cutting bonus against hard armours while cutting is the falchion, which seems fine to me, and most axes also often get a bonus, which again seems fine to me).

Added to this I want armours to degrade, with the possible result that non-cuttable armours can become cuttable. Using the armour damage rules in FOB, I came up with a system below. It does add a bit of complication, as you have to keep track of the damage to each armoured location, but I think it does add something to the realism. Rather than armour taking damage and then suddenly becoming unusable, as it does in FOB, it just degrades in stages, and I am thinking that once a non-cuttable armour has been reduced by half (perhaps by 2 AV?) then it becomes cuttable.

The damage caused by blows is as in FOB, but armour degrades at the following rates:

Leather/Padding/Hardened Leather/ Scale: 1AV / 5 damage
All Maille: 1AV / 6
All Plates: 1AV / 7

As to which armours are non-cutting, is it just maille and plate, or would scale and hardened leather also qualify?

I might want to fiddle a little with the AV of some of the armours, but may well for ease just leave them as they are in Tros. What I might re-write slightly is the CP and move penalties for wearing armours.


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 Post subject: Re: Blunt Trauma
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:25 am 
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Iorwerth wrote:
I like the armour penetration modifiers for individual weapons but don't think they can sit side by side with having differing AVs for armours against different types of attacks.
My idea is that weapons, rather than modify the AVs, modify the wound caps, so, the weapons still have to beat the same AV, but in case of a more powerful blow, they can inflict worse wound than the rules would normally allow.

Iorwerth wrote:
As to which armours are non-cutting, is it just maille and plate, or would scale and hardened leather also qualify?
I count them in, yes, though as I get it, hardened leather was used for helmets and scale armour scales only, not for rigid breastplates, etc. I do agree that a rule for making an armour "cuttable" would be great, but I wouldn't want to track all that information. I'm thinking in the lines of... having a rule of thumb that needs to be met success or DR wise to cut through the links or scales.

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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