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 Post subject: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Draw cuts in FOB seem wrong, given that you need to expand a dice to do it, so the +1 draw cut seems a bit pointless. Anyone come up with any fixes/mods for draw cuts?


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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:54 pm 
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I thought about something, though I never implemented it.

Instead of bothering with a maneuver of its own, I'd probably work draw cut capability into the weapon stats. A weapon that's good at slicing (mainly curved blades) would get damage modifiers versus certain types of armour - +1 against unarmoured and/or textile armour and, for those weapons that are bad at anything but slicing, -1 versus metal armours and/or leather armours, the actual extent of armour types that are subject to modifiers being determined by just how good a weapon is at slicing and how bad at anything but slicing. So instead of the player deciding whether to chop or slice, it is simply assumed that he will use the best of either in any given situation. To me, this seems more elegant and easier to use than a seperate maneuver.

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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:12 pm 
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Interesting idea. What I have been contemplating is similiar - I was going to make a Draw cut a normal cut manouever. When a draw cut is successful the attacker can choose to end up one range shorter (draw cut range) or to remain at the standard range for his weapon (in FOB it talks about Katana draw cuts often being accomplished by the attacker stepping in then stepping back out). What is different for a draw cut is that any armour AV is doubled against the draw cut - basically, using a draw cut against anyone in armour is pointless, unless your chopping is going to be even worse. You could make it that any armour above AV1 is doubled, so that leather and above is where the big difference in AV v draw cuts really kicks in?

Interestingly, there are not many weapons with positive draw cuts (positive being draw cuts of +1 or more - basically the top is +2, bar a razor with +5) and even less that have higher draw cuts than normal cuts:

Cut&thrust sword - DC+1, 1 higher than normal cut
Sax - DC+1, 2 higher
Shortsword - DC+1, 2 higher
Rapier - DC:+1, 4 higher
Saber - DC:+2, 2 hgiher
Schwiezersabel - DC:+2, 1 higher
Sidesword - DC:+1, 2 higher
Smallsword - DC:+1, 5 higher
1h Protosword - DC:+1, 1 higher
Akinakes - DC:+1, 2 higher
Broad Dagger - DC;+1, 2 higher
Pugio - DC:+2, 4 higher
Dussack - DC:+1, 1 higher
Small Dagger - DC:+2, 5 higher
Large Dagger - DC:+1, 3 higher
Jambiya - DC:+2, 5 higher
Razor - DC:+5, 10 higher!!
Small knife - DC:+2, 6 higher
Large knife - DC:+2, 5 higher
Kukri - DC:+1, 1 higher
Parrying Dagger - DC: +1, 4 higher
Lieu Ye Dao - DC:+2, 2 higher
Jian 2h - DC:+1, 1 higher
Katana 1h - DC:+1, 1 hgiher
Katana 2h - DC:+2 , 1 higher
Shamshir - DC:+2, 3 higher
Wakizashi - DC:+1, 1 higher

This list, mainly dagger types, fencing weapons, saber types and Katanas, seems about right to me. Not sure a razor should be so high, mind you, but then I have been altering a fair number of weapons in my quest for the right balance to weapons, so would probably bring that down a little! (figures above are from FOB, not my mod, just to make clear).


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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:16 pm 
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I do of course see how a draw cut would be something to resort to at close range, when you’re too close to properly swing your blade, but at the right distance to draw it across your opponent, but I have to admit that personally, I don’t care for this bit of additional realism. Its absence sure isn’t jarring.

And to avoid the problem of huge damage modifiers I would limit it to +/-1 and not differentiate weapons by the extent of the modifier, but rather by what types of armour they have modifiers against. A very good draw-cutter might for example have +1 against unarmoured and textile armour, +/-0 against leather and –1 against all metal armour, and a very poor (but still useful one) +1 against unarmoured, +/-0 against textile armour and –1 against leather and metal.

Iorwerth wrote:
Not sure a razor should be so high,(...)

Not sure a razor should be in the weapon list! Tooth pick, anybody? They are real dangerous if stuck into an eyeball. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 8:54 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
I do of course see how a draw cut would be something to resort to at close range, when you’re too close to properly swing your blade, but at the right distance to draw it across your opponent, but I have to admit that personally, I don’t care for this bit of additional realism. Its absence sure isn’t jarring.


I agree. Just make it a normal cut i.e. no dice penalty. Just thought it would be nice if the draw cutting attacker could choose either to stay at weapon's normal range or its closer-up draw cut range.

Grettir wrote:
And to avoid the problem of huge damage modifiers I would limit it to +/-1 and not differentiate weapons by the extent of the modifier, but rather by what types of armour they have modifiers against. A very good draw-cutter might for example have +1 against unarmoured and textile armour, +/-0 against leather and –1 against all metal armour, and a very poor (but still useful one) +1 against unarmoured, +/-0 against textile armour and –1 against leather and metal.


My only thought on this is that is it possible to really draw cut against anyone wearing armour? perhaps leather? It would seem pretty useless type of attack against anyone in heavier armour, unless I am missing something.

Iorwerth wrote:
Not sure a razor should be so high,(...)

Not sure a razor should be in the weapon list! Tooth pick, anybody? They are real dangerous if stuck into an eyeball. :roll:[/quote]

Toothpicks probably don't have a draw cut to really talk about, but would be slightly better at thrusting attacks :D


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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:46 am 
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Grettir wrote:
And to avoid the problem of huge damage modifiers I would limit it to +/-1 and not differentiate weapons by the extent of the modifier, but rather by what types of armour they have modifiers against. A very good draw-cutter might for example have +1 against unarmoured and textile armour, +/-0 against leather and –1 against all metal armour, and a very poor (but still useful one) +1 against unarmoured, +/-0 against textile armour and –1 against leather and metal.
Iorwerth wrote:
My only thought on this is that is it possible to really draw cut against anyone wearing armour?

In my limited understanding, it isn't. But by doing away with the draw cut maneuver, I also would require players and referees not to think in terms of draw cuts, just cuts.

Now a weapon like a scimitar is good at draw cutting, but it isn't useless at just chopping against armour. By relegating the draw cutting capability to merely DR, without attendant maneuver, it is assumed that anybody who knows anythig about the weapon at all will always use the best mode of attack - i.e. against the somebody in normal clothes the scimitar wielder will draw cut and against somebody in scale armour he will chop. The negative DR modifier against some or even most armours that many of the good draw cutters have is therefore not intended to reflect draw cutting performance against armours but rather (reduced) chopping performance against armours.

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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 12:55 pm 
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I completely remodelled Draw Cuts for EoS... You need to meet following conditions:

a) weapon must be suited for draw cuts, which generally means curved blades, but also broad bladed daggers and razors;
b) you can spend up to 2 dice as activation, getting up to +2 damage;
c) extra damage only counts when hitting an unarmoured body part or soft armour.

That's it. Clunky draw cut modifier is not needed. There's no point in messing with the reach length -- all it does is eat some CP -- the same thing happens with the activation cost and it's waaay easier to track. If you're chopping, you're using the "adding more power to the blow" or Hard Swing as I call it.

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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 3:03 pm 
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Iorwerth wrote:
Interestingly, there are not many weapons with positive draw cuts (positive being draw cuts of +1 or more - basically the top is +2, bar a razor with +5) and even less that have higher draw cuts than normal cuts:

Cut&thrust sword - DC+1, 1 higher than normal cut
Sax - DC+1, 2 higher
Shortsword - DC+1, 2 higher...
Razor - DC:+5, 10 higher!!...


I think you misunderstand how draw cut works.

Quote:
A draw cut requires the attacker to be standing slightly closer to his opponent than for a thrust or a swing. As such, the range of the weapon when performing a draw cut is reduced by one (to a minimum of one, of course). This means that if you are already at the usual range for your weapon, you will face a 1CP range penalty to attack with a draw cut, and if successful you will be at one range step closer, meaning that further draw cuts do not suffer the penalty but other cuts or thrusts would (after which you would have moved back to the usual range for your weapon) and so on.
All cutting weapons on the weapons list (starting p. 119) have a new statistic named “Draw Cut Modifier”. This modifier is added to or subtracted from the Cut damage rating of the weapon when performing a draw cut, depending on how suitable that weapon is for draw cutting. However, because a draw cut relies more on the sharpness of the blade than the Strength behind the blow, the final damage rating is reduced by -1 against any form of soft armor (Cloth, Leather and Light Mail), or -2 against hard armor (Cuir Bouilli, Scaled Armor, regular Mail, Doubled and Banded mail, and any form of Plate).


So there is no activation cost. just how close you are penalties.

It also says you add/subtract the draw cut modifier from the Original cut modifier this means that weapons like the razor DR is not +5 with the draw cut but -5 (for cut) +5 (for draw cut) totaling +0 DR. This makes sense when you think about trying to fight with a razor if you were to hit with the tip of the weapon you are only going to create scratches but its when you draw it across your opponents body that you are going to do actual damage.

The only problem I see with the draw cut modifier is that the soft and hard armor deductions should be higher maybe -2 and -3 or even more.

I hope this better clears up the draw cut for you.

~Flint


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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Thanks for the reply - just goes to show I should pay more attention and read the rules properly!!

I do agree that the armour modifiers should be higher. Also, any weapon with a zero or less draw-cut would never draw cut, or am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:26 pm 
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Iorwerth wrote:
Also, any weapon with a zero or less draw-cut would never draw cut, or am I missing something?


If the player has a choice, then probably not. But if their opponent has closed inside their normal range then the draw cut might be the strike that's available.

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 Post subject: Re: Draw Cuts
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:49 am 
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Iorwerth wrote:
Also, any weapon with a zero or less draw-cut would never draw cut, or am I missing something?
Well, you can USE the maneuver, but with negative or zero Draw Cut value, there's hardly any point. Also, there's hardly any point in +1 DC values, as "losing a reach shortening die" and "getting a draw cut +1 damage" is almost identical to the "adding more power do the blow: spend one and only one die from the attack and get +1 damage". The main difference being that TFOB draw cut rules allow further draw cuts for free, but "adding more power to the blow" +1 damage works for any armour.

Essentially TFOB Draw Cuts are only useful when the modifier is +2 or higher -- which only a handful of weapons have.

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