It is currently Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:27 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Narrativism
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:17 pm
Posts: 16
Hello folks,

I hope you don't mind the not-quite-about-TRoS content of my post.

I have done "classic" gaming for many years, and not all of it has been a pleasant experience. In recent years, having read a lot of The Forge, and from reading this forum as well, I have been enlightened to other styles of play, and have become increasingly dissatisfied with many of the games I play. I have found that I resent all but the subtlest Illusionism, I object to Force, and I am tired of the model of the GM as producer & the player as consumer. As a GM I do not want to spend hours of time in "prep", and I am weary of the responsibility to keep everyone entertained; as a player, I am bored of having to yet again figure out what I am "supposed" to do while pretending that that is what I had wanted to do in the first place.

What I have enjoyed in the past is straight Gamist “dungeoneering” as well as quite Simmy high-level strategic campaigns involving aspects of resource management &c. Yet I really think I should try Narrativism! To this end, I have acquired and read a number of modern Nar-facilitating games (including TRoS – I had to mention it, as this is a TRoS forum! ;) ), and I also continue to lurk here, where I have found very good information (and for which I am grateful!). Eventually, I hope to get one of the gaming groups I am involved in to have a go.

Now, I think it was on the site that the idea was expressed (by Grettir, I believe) that for experienced gamers to "get it", you have to go in at the deep end with some hardcore Nar. As part of this, I am trying to form an explicit statement of "how to play in this way" that puts my friends on the right track - a sort of intro document. In the game texts I have looked at, the wording did not seem strong enough for me; they give the right idea to non-gamers (I tried it on my wife!) but, with the possible exception of Anima Prime (again discovered through this forum – thanks folks!), they would not disabuse the gamers I am thinking of, of their assumptions.

I was wondering what people thought of my attempts to create such an intro document. Has anyone done something similar? Are you aware of any games that contain suitable text? In particular, I hope to include an exact outline of the duties of the GM - this would be more constraining that the system we end up playing, but would help to fix the mode of play.

--
"Nipsonanomimatamimonanopsin"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Narrativism
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:06 am
Posts: 1495
Location: Vienna, Austria, Europe
I know of no such short, concise document, and from my own experiences of explaining this style to veteran gamers, I’m doubtful that it is easy, or indeed possible, to create one. My own efforts to at delineating Narrativism tenets on these boards required several multi-part essays, with Q&A after every part, and even then I’m not sure that everybody following them got it. This might well be my fault, though.

Still, quite recently there was a thread were pbj44 talked about how his son had adapted SAs to introduce his group to them and to TRoS, and there I did at least find something that struck me as an excellent way to break the habits of seasoned gamers – by introducing SAs totally as a tactical ressource, practically entirely seperate from the PC and his fictional personality. That seemed to me like a very good way to get players to “get” metagaming. Don’t introduce SAs as a seeming personality trait that’s really a metagaming ressource, but introduce them as a metagame ressource and only later wed them to personality traits. You find the thread here.

But that’s admittedly still no introductory essay. :(

By the way, I regard my view that it is very hard to break seasoned gamers out of their habits as once again validated by this:

Anthemius wrote:
In the game texts I have looked at, the wording did not seem strong enough for me; they give the right idea to non-gamers (I tried it on my wife!) but, with the possible exception of Anima Prime (again discovered through this forum – thanks folks!), they would not disabuse the gamers I am thinking of, of their assumptions.

_________________
My real name is Michael; use it, if you like.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Narrativism
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:43 pm
Posts: 2112
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Anthemius wrote:
As part of this, I am trying to form an explicit statement of "how to play in this way" that puts my friends on the right track - a sort of intro document. In the game texts I have looked at, the wording did not seem strong enough for me; they give the right idea to non-gamers (I tried it on my wife!) but, with the possible exception of Anima Prime (again discovered through this forum – thanks folks!), they would not disabuse the gamers I am thinking of, of their assumptions.

I was wondering what people thought of my attempts to create such an intro document. Has anyone done something similar? Are you aware of any games that contain suitable text? In particular, I hope to include an exact outline of the duties of the GM - this would be more constraining that the system we end up playing, but would help to fix the mode of play.


I intended solving this issue with a slightly different approach. For about six months we played the What Price Freedom PbP scenario here on these boards. It was always my intention, upon completion of the game, to create an analysis document for the game. On one side you would have the referee and player posts that were directly relevant to the game, on the other an analysis of those actions. This analysis was to specifically cover whether the action was Narrativist or whether it was in the other modes.

Through this I hoped to provide a practical example of what the referee does in this style of game and what the players do. It would, I guess, be possible to create an appendix to this document which might cover more of what you are talking about.

Regards,

_________________
Ian Plumb
Illustrations for Gamers
Lyonpaedia
Griffin Grove Gaming
Kraftworks for Kids School Holiday Program


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Narrativism
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:17 pm
Posts: 16
Well, I do not presume to create a document that will somehow effect a paradigm shift in the reader! :mrgreen:

I was merely after something a fellow gamer would read, not quite grasp, say "Ok, let's try it", and then later, during play, I can, when needed, point at the document and say:
Quote:
"See how it says you're more of a scenariographer than an actor? Well, shouldn't you ..."

or
Quote:
"You can't actually decide that for us. Look here, where it says it is the whole group's responsibility to ..."

Somehow, I imagine it would be better to have this clear initial statement in black-and-white.

It is like if your friend’s idea of boardgaming is entirely based on games where you roll dice and move your piece round a board, and you are trying to introduce them to chess. They might not easily grasp that there is no luck involved, but it would probably still be better to explicitly state, before you start, that you do not roll dice. Then, later, when they reach for their 2D6, you can say:
Quote:
“Remember how we said the game does not involve using dice?”

They might feel silly, but they would have to agree that that is what it says in the written description of the kind of game they agreed to try out. Without that initial statement, you might say:
Quote:
“Actually, you can’t use those. This game does not involve dice.”

They might then feel foolish and say:
Quote:
“Oh. I see. :oops: ”

Or they might object and say:
Quote:
“What?? What weird sort of game have you gotten me into? I’m rolling anyway. That is what you do in boardgames!”


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Narrativism
PostPosted: Sun Nov 28, 2010 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:06 am
Posts: 103
Location: Darwin Australia
Hello Again,
Looking for some of the leads mentioned in this thread about the subject line.
I am a long time gamer, but have never delved in to the nuts and bolts.

Allan


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group              Designed by QuakeZone