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 Post subject: Aces & Eights
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 1:32 pm 
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Hi all!

Found a quite interesting system that handles the randomness of shots really well, and I especially digged how the shotguns pellet scattering was determined. Sounds like a lot of work though. Just some food for thought:

http://www.kenzerco.com/aces_n_eights/g ... clock.html

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 Post subject: Re: Aces & Eights
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:02 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Hi all!

Found a quite interesting system that handles the randomness of shots really well, and I especially digged how the shotguns pellet scattering was determined. Sounds like a lot of work though. Just some food for thought:

http://www.kenzerco.com/aces_n_eights/g ... clock.html


That's a good find Higgins.

Can you imagine the look of dismay on the referee's face when all the PC's choose a shotgun for the final scene in the Shootout at the OK Corral scenario?

All this game needs is a widget to handle the missile damage process. Rotate the target model so that the profile is correct for your location. Select weapon. Press the button. The widget then animates where the shot(s) went.

The lack of a PDF version of the core rules is a major drawback -- particularly for an Indie game.

I like this idea a lot for EoS and the handling of thrown/missile weapons. In particular it would handle magical effects quite well -- area damage, splash damage, that sort of thing. I like the idea of being able to rotate the target in space -- so if you are above the target the profile is reduced but almost all hit locations are head shots.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Aces & Eights
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 10:45 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
The lack of a PDF version of the core rules is a major drawback -- particularly for an Indie game.
Yeah, and the hardback is out of stock as well. :(

Ian.Plumb wrote:
I like this idea a lot for EoS and the handling of thrown/missile weapons. In particular it would handle magical effects quite well -- area damage, splash damage, that sort of thing. I like the idea of being able to rotate the target in space -- so if you are above the target the profile is reduced but almost all hit locations are head shots.
I immediately though of EoS too. TROS has a great melee system, but the randomness of hit location for the long shot, burst fire and scattering buckshot leave a lot to desire.

There are two major drawbacks in this system though:
1) you need special equipment (or software)
2) even with the equipment, you're bound to meet circumstances where you just don't have the proper silhouette (obscure positions and angles, going both barrels at once vs. multiple opponents rushing at you, etc)

Gotta love the detail though. No other system where most of the shot misses you and still an odd pellet finds its way to break one of your gun hand knuckles.

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 Post subject: Re: Aces & Eights
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:07 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I like this idea a lot for EoS and the handling of thrown/missile weapons. In particular it would handle magical effects quite well -- area damage, splash damage, that sort of thing. I like the idea of being able to rotate the target in space -- so if you are above the target the profile is reduced but almost all hit locations are head shots.


higgins wrote:
I immediately though of EoS too. TROS has a great melee system, but the randomness of hit location for the long shot, burst fire and scattering buckshot leave a lot to desire.


I agree with what you are saying here. I would add that it is just more fun to melee than it is to missile in TRoS. However, with it's own little system along the lines of A&8 being an archer would be just as interesting, just as tactical, just as interesting, and just as much fun as being in hand-to-hand.

higgins wrote:
1) you need special equipment (or software).
2) even with the equipment, you're bound to meet circumstances where you just don't have the proper silhouette (obscure positions and angles, going both barrels at once vs. multiple opponents rushing at you, etc)


I can't see any way around this. There's no way a game that emphasizes narrative can afford to dedicate this much time to the resolution of a single shot. The system is perfect, perhaps, for one-on-one gunslingers that are duelling. But as soon as the referee is controlling multiple gunslingers or -- mind-boggling -- a dozen opponents the scene resolution would take way too long for the players to remain connected to the flow of the story.

The templates are brilliant -- but in A&8 I didn't see any horse-back profiles, or side-on profiles, or crouching profiles. EoS would need animals/monsters as well. It could take ages to find the right silhouette, let alone resolve the shot. The referee can prepare in advance I guess, get the silhouettes ready that are expected to be needed before play begins. But it would be a lot easier with a laptop -- and with a 3d model to rotate you can at least get the angle right, and then take cover into consideration separately.

What I do like here is that it would fall in line with miniatures play. With the figurines on the tabletop everyone can see the actual angle, the actual visibility of the target. THat would make rotating the silhouette fairly straight forward.

I like the way the system handles range, accuracy, aiming, and location as well as success/fail in the one resolution. That is quite neat. The system has a lot going for it in that sense.

Without access to the rules though it is hard to know how well the mechanics work.

What about if you scaled the target template down to a 1" transparent circle which you then held against a figurine? You'd need to reduce the number of results of course but then the "silhouette" is easily rotated into position.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Aces & Eights
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I can't see any way around this. There's no way a game that emphasizes narrative can afford to dedicate this much time to the resolution of a single shot.
Yes, that's the gist of it. Anyway, it's obvious that we can't just copy A&8. The fact that we couldn't come up with a fast and TROSy solution immediately doesn't mean that we'll never do that.

How have you handled the ranged attacks, btw?

I use the TFOB p. 9 table with the following modification:

Point Blank Range: always hit the zone you aim for
Short Range: roll 2d6, then re-set one die as you wish
Medium Range: roll 2d6, then re-roll one die if you wish
Long & Extreme Range: roll 2d6

Ian.Plumb wrote:
The system is perfect, perhaps, for one-on-one gunslingers that are duelling. But as soon as the referee is controlling multiple gunslingers or -- mind-boggling -- a dozen opponents the scene resolution would take way too long for the players to remain connected to the flow of the story.
In that regard, it's pretty similar to TROS. Rolling out half a dozen NPC duels would be a similar nightmare.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
What I do like here is that it would fall in line with miniatures play. With the figurines on the tabletop everyone can see the actual angle, the actual visibility of the target. THat would make rotating the silhouette fairly straight forward.
Haha, I got a silly idea from it. :lol: Buy 25 laser pointers, take them apart, build a 5x5 pointer square a bit larger than your average miniature the height x width. Add a small chip of electronics that would allow to set the skill level of the shooter. Hand the one-button remote over to the player. At the push of the button, the electronic part sets one led alight and it's immediately clear whether the laser beam hits the miniature or not. Boardgaming in 2020. :mrgreen:

Ian.Plumb wrote:
What about if you scaled the target template down to a 1" transparent circle which you then held against a figurine? You'd need to reduce the number of results of course but then the "silhouette" is easily rotated into position.
I don't quite get what you mean by this, sorry. Like... having a scattershot square with sort of dream-catchery spider web inside with small beads as the shot? Then you look through to see what hits?

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"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Aces & Eights
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:17 pm 
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higgins wrote:
The fact that we couldn't come up with a fast and TROSy solution immediately doesn't mean that we'll never do that.


I agree -- it just needs some thought.

higgins wrote:
How have you handled the ranged attacks, btw?


It depended on whether minis were in use or not. Pre-minis, straight TFoB. With minis in use (and terrain etc) it became more difficult as the actual context of the shot was taken into account. Certain locations were more likely, others less likely, some impossible. It often came down to a referee decision. For example:

Roll d10. On a 1 it's a ..., 2 - 4 is a ...

higgins wrote:
In that regard, it's pretty similar to TROS. Rolling out half a dozen NPC duels would be a similar nightmare.


I think A&8 would be much worse.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
What about if you scaled the target template down to a 1" transparent circle which you then held against a figurine? You'd need to reduce the number of results of course but then the "silhouette" is easily rotated into position.


higgins wrote:
I don't quite get what you mean by this, sorry. Like... having a scattershot square with sort of dream-catchery spider web inside with small beads as the shot? Then you look through to see what hits?


In A&8 there are literally hundreds of possible trajectories for the bullet to follow -- most of which miss. How much detail do you really need about a bullet that misses?

In TRoS, you need to know whether the shot missed or which hit location has been hit. You don't need to know where in the hit location the shot has landed -- you get that from the actual wound description, or you should.

So I was thinking of a transparent template more like an archery butt with quadrants marked off. If it is short-range then you put the template on the figurine. Medium range hold it an inch away, and so on. Roll dice to determine which quadrant the shot has passed through, look through the template to determine whether that quadrant hits the figurine.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Aces & Eights
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:03 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
higgins wrote:
How have you handled the ranged attacks, btw?
It depended on whether minis were in use or not. Pre-minis, straight TFoB. With minis in use (and terrain etc) it became more difficult as the actual context of the shot was taken into account. Certain locations were more likely, others less likely, some impossible. It often came down to a referee decision. For example:

Roll d10. On a 1 it's a ..., 2 - 4 is a ...
Well, that's the main problem with the ranged combat, I think. In melee, you specify the target zone, but in ranged, you can't really do that, so, the player has a lot less control over taking the actual shot. The other alternative is simply to have the character to hit the intended zone, but that makes everybody sharpshooters.

Maybe we should use different zonings for different ranges? Something like...

Close up, you have the 7 standard zones. But when the target is further away, you can only specify whether you aim high or low and the exact "standard zone" is derived randomly. In long ranges and beyond, you go for the general silhouette and can't even specify the high and low.

I mean, that sounds pretty cool. Target is far away, you can't really aim for specific body parts, then you slap a scope on you rifle and bam, you get to choose between the proper zones again.

Sure, it doesn't model the individual pellets as A&8, but I think it's a good starting point.

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"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Aces & Eights
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Hello,
HarnMaster Gold had a nice system for tracking arrow's on a target.
And Aces and Eights system is just a copy of the Milleniums End system.

Allan


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 Post subject: Re: Aces & Eights
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:17 pm 
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aprewett wrote:
And Aces and Eights system is just a copy of the Milleniums End system.
Another example that game mechanics can't be copyrighted. :)

aprewett wrote:
HarnMaster Gold had a nice system for tracking arrow's on a target.
I just wish we could come up with an elegant way to determine deviation without resorting to a silhouette.

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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