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 Post subject: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:12 am 
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Hey guys, I was reading over some of the thrown weapons and was rather shocked at some of their Prep Times

For instance to draw a Francisca from your belt takes 2 rounds, now since a round can be anywhere from 1 to 2 seconds, that's 2 to 4!!! seconds to draw an axe to throw.

Now I'm not sure about anyone else, but I can draw a Hatchet from a belt in less than a second without even trying to be fast. When trying to be fast I can draw, willy my arm, aim (enough to hit the target) and throw the axe in a second.

Also, note that the willy Back time doesn't include aiming as that is handled under Refresh and well, aiming!

As it stands, it can take anywhere from 2 to 6 seconds to throw a hatchet without aiming!!!.

Am I the only who thinks this is too much?

If I was to write the rules for Prep Time on a throwing axe it would be 1. That includes drawing and cocking, throwing is handled in the next round, as is aiming if you wish to do so.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:17 am 
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Uh, I think the 1-2 second really breaks the prep times, and it should be assumed we're dealing with one second here. With that in mind, how would you define throwing it under a second? I'd define that you reduce your prep time with the Reflex roll and then throw it before getting your Aim to the pool. So, maybe add a generous prep reducing mechanic to it, which it currently lacks?

That said, throwing knives in the core also have 1-3 rounds prep time. One for drawing it and two for willying it back...

P.S.
I simply loved the "Willy Back Time" expression. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:20 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Uh, I think the 1-2 second really breaks the prep times, and it should be assumed we're dealing with one second here. With that in mind, how would you define throwing it under a second? I'd define that you reduce your prep time with the Reflex roll and then throw it before getting your Aim to the pool. So, maybe add a generous prep reducing mechanic to it, which it currently lacks?

That said, throwing knives in the core also have 1-3 rounds prep time. One for drawing it and two for willying it back...


Hm, even assuming straight up 1 second rounds, I would give prep time for drawing a throwing axe or knife from your belt a 1. I mean I can do it easily without even trying and I've had zero practice doing so. I mean, taking a second to willy your arm is ridiculous, when imagining taken so long in combat I shudder.

Nah the more I think about it, it should be prep time of 1, and if you do a Quci Draw you should be able to draw it in the first exchange and throw it in the second.

Ofcoure this is just asumming weapons stored in accessable places on the belt, that you are used to drawing and throwing.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Hm, maybe just use exchanges instead of rounds for thrown weapon prep times? That would also probably mean that you can cut two exchanges (one round) with quick prep. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:30 am 
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higgins wrote:
Hm, maybe just use exchanges instead of rounds for thrown weapon prep times? That would also probably mean that you can cut two exchanges (one round) with quick prep. Thoughts?


Sounds good, nice and simple. I haven't gone over the numbers but it is definitely a step in the right direction, IMHO.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:26 pm 
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It depends on WHERE and HOW you keep your weapons.

I'm pretty sure that you could draw a throwing dagger from your belt in 1 second while unthreatned. But could you do the same in battle, while your eyes and attention are on a 2-meters barbarian whose only purpose is putting more iron in your belly than you can in this same 1-second window?

A bunch of seconds to accomplish this sound perfectly reasonable imho (and don't forget accelerated weapon preparation). ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:41 pm 
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I don't really see myself drawing a weapon in melee, so the barbarian is not an issue IMO.

Also, in combat a novice might stumble around trying to draw his weapon, but anyone with combat experience won't. Now I haven't been in combat, but I have been in my share of fights, and I have always found that my reflexes and perception increase phenominally.

Also, I am only talking about drawing a weapon that is in an appropriate place, designed to be drawn, think gun in a holster, only is a knife in a sheathe.

Perhaps, the Quick Draw rules could be used?

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:48 pm 
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Quote:
Hey guys, I was reading over some of the thrown weapons and was rather shocked at some of their Prep Times

For instance to draw a Francisca from your belt takes 2 rounds, now since a round can be anywhere from 1 to 2 seconds, that's 2 to 4!!! seconds to draw an axe to throw.


As bruted about in Ian's ACS combat thread, IMO the 1-2 second exchange is a flawed mechanic that sucks the life out melee archery or spell casting. Since I adopted the house rule that an exchange is actually a variable amount of time (1-20 seconds), some powerful flaws in TROS have disappeared and now archers/missile users (as well as wizards) have an equal place at the melee table.

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 10:04 pm 
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Quote:
Hey guys, I was reading over some of the thrown weapons and was rather shocked at some of their Prep Times

For instance to draw a Francisca from your belt takes 2 rounds, now since a round can be anywhere from 1 to 2 seconds, that's 2 to 4!!! seconds to draw an axe to throw.


ACS: Exchange DurationTRoS has an abstract combat environment -- it just doesn't work with minis and accurate mapping of movement. Jake intended the combat to be cinematic -- the limelight sticks with a pair of combatants until something interesting happens, and then it flick to the next pair of combatants. Having different combatants get to an interesting point in their combat in the same round/exchange is purely coincidental. All timing issues that result are resolved through the terrain roll, that abstract mechanic that determines questions of relative positioning.

The problem here is that many writers for the game have assumed that position (and thus distance) are determined accurately and that timing is also determined accurately. Neither is correct. So we end up with a magic system that talks about cast times down to the second and we end up with combat expansions that talk about ranges down to the yard.

All of these cause problems for the game as it stands now. Adding something new to it, like the ACS, has to take that abstraction into account.

The one or two second combat round (as specified in Core, p. 11) only makes sense while the combatants are actively engaged in combat. The problem is that there are many other actions that also take a round but clearly cannot occur within such a time frame -- circling, taunting, full evade, moving to the next combatant. And 1 or 2 seconds is almost meaningless for any other type of action -- which implies that non-combatants can't really do anything useful while a combat is going on.

The other side of the coin, of course, is that while combatants are capable of striking at each other every other second combat scenes, whether in TRoS or in films or in books, take far longer than, say, 12 seconds. So, once again, the whole "1 or 2 second combat round" doesn't reflect the abstract nature of the combat environment. It just doesn't fit in. So in the ACS I'll define an exchange as taking up to fifteen seconds, and that any spell can be cast within that time frame.


pbj44 wrote:
As bruted about in Ian's ACS combat thread, IMO the 1-2 second exchange is a flawed mechanic that sucks the life out melee archery or spell casting. Since I adopted the house rule that an exchange is actually a variable amount of time (1-20 seconds), some powerful flaws in TROS have disappeared and now archers/missile users (as well as wizards) have an equal place at the melee table.


The ACS Exchange Duration mod does indeed resolve this issue of thrown weapon preparation time. A combat Exchange is defined as taking up to fifteen seconds. There are actions that take less than a second. There are actions that take the full fifteen seconds. All are defined as taking place within a single Exchange.

With the duration of an Exchange being a variable, to align the timing of one character's action with that of another within the combat environment -- with the exception of those that are engaged in direct melee combat -- requires a Timing roll. The Timing roll is a type of Terrain Roll -- the mechanics are identical. The name is changed to avoid confusion over the purpose of the roll.

So if a character is in melee combat with two other opponents nobody makes a Timing roll while they fight. They are in direct melee combat and their Exchange duration is identical. When the hero dispatches his two opponents and seeks to interact in some way with someone else then a Timing roll is required to align their timelines.

In the above example lets say that the hero wants to draw an axe and throw it at someone. Preparing and throwing the axe can easily be accomplished within "up to 15 seconds". However, our hero must make a Timing roll to align himself with the Exchanges/Rounds of his target. The player selects the target, the referee determines the difficulty of aligning the timelines, the player allocates dice from the CP to the Timing roll, the roll is made and the timing of the actions is resolved -- when the axe will hit (or miss) the target is now known. Then the player rolls their attack with their remaining CP -- whether the axe hits or misses is now known.

In the case where Quickdraw is available, the successes from the Quickdraw action become extra dice for the Timing roll (not the CP/Attack roll).

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:46 pm 
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I love it, Ian.

PBJ, I believe you've actually used this mechanic in your games. How has it worked? Has it led to any circumstances that felt unrealistic or forced?

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:48 am 
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I am going to move this conversation to the Combat forum.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:35 pm 
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Quote:
PBJ, I believe you've actually used this mechanic in your games. How has it worked? Has it led to any circumstances that felt unrealistic or forced?


No, play has been smooth! Combat now has an elegant flow to it that was entirely lacking before the change was made. For someone such as myself who runs a large TROS group, the difference was huge. This is simply the way forward.

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:44 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
... to align the timing of one character's action with that of another within the combat environment -- with the exception of those that are engaged in direct melee combat -- requires a Timing roll. The Timing roll is a type of Terrain Roll -- the mechanics are identical. The name is changed to avoid confusion over the purpose of the roll.


Can someone link me to where the Timing Roll has been discussed elsewhere? I couldn't find it. If it hasn't been discussed in length elsewhere, could someone give an example of how this works? Does MOS factor into it - e.g. high MOS means my arrow/thrown weapon hits you before you finish your direct melee swing-exchange? What decides the TN? The loading/loosing of melee weapon? Does ACS or spellcasting in combat include Timing Roll? I didn't think so.

Thanks,

Sean.

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:05 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
Can someone link me to where the Timing Roll has been discussed elsewhere?
Sure. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=383

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 Post subject: Re: Prep Time for thrown weapons is ridculous.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:06 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
Can someone link me to where the Timing Roll has been discussed elsewhere?

Yep; here it is:


EDIT: Damn you, higgins! ;)

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