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 Post subject: Two Weapons & Shields affect CP how?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:35 pm 
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We are just starting to test TRoS combat in my group and we have some questions.

First, because we were testing the combat system and nothing else, we made up characters using priorities only concerning ourselves with skills, proficiencies and stats. We assumed that this would leave us with pretty competent fighters. It didn't. The maximum it seems you could have was a 9 dice cp. Divide that up between 2 offensive/defensive roll-offs and you have two people who can't hit each other and when they do, no damage takes place because even an average toughness means that you need 4 successes to even get to the damage table.

So these two young, fit, strong men are just flailing around at each other with razor-sharp, incredibly dangerous weapons and they might as well be sitting on a couch. That is....unless we are missing something which we really suspect we are.

What are we doing wrong please?


Second there seems to be no benefit for fighting with two weapons. With a TN of 9 for defensive maneuvers with the dagger, why bother? Given how few dice we have in our CP, you can't spare any dice to allocate it to the second weapon for an additional attack even if the rules allowed you to do that which we don't think it does. We thought TRoS might be giving a CP to each weapon (or to the shield), but we don't think that's right either.

Fighting with a buckler/blade combination apparently provides armor to the buckler side of the body, but you don't get any more dice for your combat pool to affect many of the maneuvers that seem to be available.

Again, what are we missing?

In the discussion thread on this board concerning fighting two opponents the tactics seems really complex (use this dice for this attack, this dice for the terrain, this dice for defense and save this many dice in case I need to buy initiative.....) huh?

and where does this character get all those dice in their CP?



I have tried to search the forums for help. I did download the combat sequence .pdf and that helped for some of this....



- Shannon

p.s. It was also thought that perhaps you mean for us to re-roll "10's" for additional successes, but I think the rules are pretty clear that the only thing a "10" does for you is when you have a TN above 11.

.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapons & Shields affect CP how?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:08 am 
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ShannonM wrote:
First, because we were testing the combat system and nothing else, we made up characters using priorities only concerning ourselves with skills, proficiencies and stats. We assumed that this would leave us with pretty competent fighters. It didn't. The maximum it seems you could have was a 9 dice cp.


Here's how CP works:

CP = Reflex + Proficiency + applicable SAs

Reflex

= (AG + Wit)/2 (TRoS, page 18)

Without racial bonuses, maximum starting stat is 7 (TRoS, page 19) and only one stat can be 7. Therefore, (7 + 6) / 2 = 6.5 is the maximum starting Reflex under most circumstances.

Proficiencies

Maximum starting Proficiency is 8 (TRoS, page 20).

Spiritual Attributes

A PC starts the game with 7 points (TRoS, page 19) to divide amongst the 5 selected/defined Spiritual Attributes. 5 is the maximum that may be placed in any one SA. So, for the sake of this min/maxing exercise, let's say that the player puts 5 points in one SA and 2 in another and both are SAs are active in this initial scene epic combat.

Therefore, this starting combat junkie character will have a CP for this scene of 6 + 8 + 7 = 21.

ShannonM wrote:
Divide that up between 2 offensive/defensive roll-offs and you have two people who can't hit each other and when they do, no damage takes place because even an average toughness means that you need 4 successes to even get to the damage table.


The great thing about TRoS combat is that if you have two identical characters fighting each other then player decisions -- choice of manoeuvre, allocation of CP -- will determine who wins as often as luck. In most other games luck will determine the outcome almost all of the time.

Now there's no doubt that TRoS, like all other systems, breaks down at the extremes. So if two characters have a tiny CP -- Reflex 4, Proficiency 0, no SAs active -- then that fight becomes comical (though it does eventually resolve).

However, at 9 CP the combat should resolve fairly logically.

Often it will come down to a reflex test. In other words, as the player I know I have a low CP (9), I have no idea what my opponent's CP is (the fight hasn't commenced), if I am to win I have to hit hard and early.

So I nominate Aggressive Stance (+2 CP when attacking, -2 CP activation cost when defending) and throw red. I load all 11 dice into the first Exchange. I use the lowest TN attack I have. I aim at the lowest armour location. My opponent has no idea how many CP I have -- he doesn't realise I've gone "all in." So he allocates what he thinks is enough CP to defend -- 8 CP -- and keeps some (6) in reserve for the second Exchange.

I get 6 Successes, while he gets 4. I have one more point of ST than he has of TO. My weapon and his armour cancel out as I picked a low armour location. That's 3 Successes, bludgeoning to the knee. Check the wound table -- BL 2, Shock 8, Pain 8 - WP (4), roll knockdown. My opponent has 6 CP. 6 - 8 = -2. When CP is reduced below zero, roll Knockdown. My opponent must make two knowckdown rolls.

Both CPs are 0, Round ends. Recalculate CP; my opponent is now carrying 4 points of pain and has 2 Blood Loss. At this point I am confident I will win even though my CP is still a little lower. And so the fight continues...

ShannonM wrote:
Second there seems to be no benefit for fighting with two weapons. With a TN of 9 for defensive maneuvers with the dagger, why bother? Given how few dice we have in our CP, you can't spare any dice to allocate it to the second weapon for an additional attack even if the rules allowed you to do that which we don't think it does. We thought TRoS might be giving a CP to each weapon (or to the shield), but we don't think that's right either.


TRoS isn't about "He with the larger CP wins the fight." If it were, there would be no player skill -- it would be about the numbers on the character sheet. As it is in so many other RPGs.

Fighting with two weapons is a tactical decision. It opens up certain manoeuvres that aren't available if you fight with the other proficiencies. If you want access to these manoeuvres, these options in combat, then your character fights in this style and you, as the player, need to understand how to fight successfully against opponents who use other proficiencies. In other words, how does someone who fights in the Florentine style defeat an opponent who fights in the traditional sword and shield style?

ShannonM wrote:
In the discussion thread on this board concerning fighting two opponents the tactics seems really complex (use this dice for this attack, this dice for the terrain, this dice for defense and save this many dice in case I need to buy initiative.....) huh?


Just like real life, fighting multiple opponents is very tactical. Your CP splits will determine whether you survive the encounter (or not).

When you start playing TRoS, limit everyone to the most basic of combat manoeuvres (Prof 0 or 1 manoeuvres), no missile weapons, no sorcery, no multiple opponents. As understanding grows, slowly introduce the more advanced manoeuvres. Remember, its less about how they work as when to use them. Then introduce more complicated tactical situations.

Good luck!

Regards,

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Ian Plumb
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Lyonpaedia
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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapons & Shields affect CP how?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:27 am 
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Ian, thank you very much. Your response was very helpful. I am going to print it out and bring it to the game. I'll let you all know how it goes ;-)




- Shannon


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapons & Shields affect CP how?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:20 am 
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ShannonM wrote:
Ian, thank you very much. Your response was very helpful. I am going to print it out and bring it to the game. I'll let you all know how it goes ;-)


No problem.

Oh, and when the inevitable question is asked -- "Why don't I just throw red and put all my CP into the first exchange?" -- there is plenty of discussion on here regarding how to break down that particular tactic.

Regards,

_________________
Ian Plumb
Illustrations for Gamers
Lyonpaedia
Griffin Grove Gaming
Kraftworks for Kids School Holiday Program


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapons & Shields affect CP how?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:00 am 
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ShannonM wrote:
two people who can't hit each other and when they do, no damage takes place because even an average toughness means that you need 4 successes to even get to the damage table.
In case Ian's post didn't make it clear, Strength attribute is added to the attack successes. So, your attack of 4 successes is met by defense of 2 successes. Margin of Success is 2. ST5 + 2successes - TO4 = Level 3 wound. The fight is basically over.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapons & Shields affect CP how?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:28 am 
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Hi all,

I would like add 2 points to the discussion:-

!) Mass weapons, axes, clubs and 1 handed spears, have awful DTN's (Defensive Target Numbers), while shields are about the same as most swords.
Shields also allow access to a few advanced manouvers, that allow you to either attack and defend at once or attack twice, but these are CP greedy.
Also shields are a LOT more effective verses missile weapons, than anything else except heavy armour.

2) On Higgings point about lvl 3 wounds ending the fight, he is correct, but note that there are 2 locations, on the d6 roll, that get a lvl 3 effect elsewhere on a lvl 2 hit. These locations are the Groin and a location on the face, I think.

Simon Burling


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapons & Shields affect CP how?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:40 pm
Posts: 106
Location: Texas
ShannonM,

I have wrestled with this same exact issue a few years back and given very much the same advice and direction, by many of the same people.

I have played with the system and gotten a bit of a hang of the tactics and 'tricks' that help eek out every bit of CP usage to be effective. And lo and behold it is still exceptionally easy to make a grave tactical error and end up with 0 CP with which to defend even a 3 CP attack. Which in itself with little to no armor is game over. (usually).

Now to touch on my limited experiences and how they pertain to your experience. As I understand it you have taken the same route that I did when trying to learn the system, ie: simplify to see the very root of the system. In in your case and mine that was to remove Spiritual attributes from the equation. The issue with this approach as I found is that the combat system breaks at the extremes (as Ian mentions), very small CP and very large ones. With the absence of SAs and using basic, 'low level' fighters or those with limited training the CPs will be at the practical minimum for most cases.

What I have seen is that the realistic minimum for a full CP is around 8 much less and it become nearly a fight of buffoonery. 10-12 CP give you a little breathing room and still the first hit will almost dictate the victor. (almost... but surprises and tactics can make a *huge* difference). Add a measly 2 CP for SAs (spiritual attributes) and the fight changes completely.

Regarding a guideline for creating starting warriors, you need to aim for a minimum of 10 CP. ie: reflex in the 4-6 range and proficiency in the main weapon at a 5 range. (looking at the creation chart that means priority 'C' Proficiency minimum for a warrior). Supporting roles can opt for less but do not expect them to stand their ground in any combat. SAs would then add to that in appropriate situations.

Last comment multiple opponents *quickly* outstrip a superior warrior. Having play tested several 2v1 scenarios a sufficiently armored attacker can play CP sink/ tank to a vastly superior defender. Leaving the less armored second to give chase. The best plan in the case of 2v1 situation is the 1 needs to get the hell out the dodge until he can engage on his terms.

Last comment at a minimum of 8-10 CP any terrain rolls, stun, pain etc. will kill you as you do not have a high enough CP to waste even a single.


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