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 Post subject: Permanent spells
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:46 pm 
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Hi! In "Of beast and men" there are some spells which have permanent duration (with an advice about reading Sorceres and the fey :lol: )

Does someone know how that should work? thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Permanent spells
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:03 am 
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Hayden wrote:
Hi! In "Of beast and men" there are some spells which have permanent duration (with an advice about reading Sorceres and the fey :lol: )

Does someone know how that should work? thanks!


Could you quote an example for me?

Many thanks,

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 Post subject: Re: Permanent spells
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:15 am 
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Of course. For example:

Quote:
CREATE HOMUNCULUS
Spell of Many
CTN = 12 (casting time = 12 hours)
T) 3; R) 1; V) 2; D) 0 (Instantaneous, made
permanent); L) 6 (3+1+1+1+1+1-2)
Vagaries: Sculpture 3, Growth 3, Conquer
3, Vision 3, Summoning 2, Imprisonment 2
Effects: Intricacy 3, Concept 3 and Dividing
3 allow the sorcerer to manipulate the
blood and flesh of his own body to grow a
small duplicate (Clairvoyance 3 is required
to see and thus manipulate the material on
the molecular level). Summoning Spirits 2
allows the sorcerer to bring forth a portion
of his own soul, and then use Implant 3 to
insert it in the newly formed homunculus
body, and Imprison Spirits 2 to lock it there.

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 Post subject: Re: Permanent spells
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:36 am 
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Hmmm, curious -- I wonder why the reference to SatF?

Anyway, SatF had -- in one of its draft incarnations -- the concept that permanent spells had to be powered by the wizard permanently sacrificing power into the device. In the case of the homonculous this might be obvious, but in the case of other spells which simply had a permanent duration a device had to be created or found to house this power.

It wasn't my cup of tea. YMMV.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Permanent spells
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:08 pm 
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I spent a great deal of time thinking about permanent magick, but my focus was more on the creation of magickal artifacts. Cut & paste below. Yes. I am crazy. Ask me if you want clarification...


Thoughts on making permanent magickal objects.

The book says nothing about it. I’m drawing on my knowledge of how to make ‘fetishes’ in Werewolf: The Apocalypse, and the few rules that Riddle of Steel has along the same vein. In Werewolf, you craft the object, then summon a powerful spirit, and somehow bind it into the object to fuel it’s magick. You can do this by sweet-talking, making a deal, or beating the hell out of it.

In Riddle of Steel, you can Summon a Spirit or Demon with Summoning. I think it should be a Demon, and the reason is that summoning those costs Spiritual Attribute Points.
• Lesser Demon – costs 8 to summon
• (Regular) Demon – costs 16 to summon
• Greater Demon – costs 24 to summon

Summoning a Spirit is still costly, but the cost is vague. I suspect that the number of Spiritual Attributes you would gain while performing the activities to make the spirit happy is about on-par with what it costs to summon a demon.
• Lesser Spirit – a service to the spirit, such as a host body or other offering.
• (Regular) Spirit – an extensive service.
• Greater Spirit – an epic quest.

Apparently, you can use Conquer to implant a Demon into a living creature, but the little bit the book says makes me think Imprisonment should be used: “Trapping magical creatures or forces in the physical plane. A focus (such as a talisman) must be created in order to bind the energy to the physical world.”

Imprisoning a spirit is cheap. You spend a few dice from your Sorcery Pool, it is not a permanent loss, and they refresh normally. It ranges from 2 SP, 5 SP, to 10 SP. No definition is given for what constitutes a lesser, normal, or greater spirit. Although, in Of Beasts and Men, the spell for turning yourself into a Lich uses Imprisoning 2, implying that a sorcerer a regular spirit.

Imprisoning a demon is hard. You spend Spiritual Attribute Points.
• 7 for lesser,
• 13 for regular, and
• 21 for greater. Wow.

So, I think to make a permanent magick item, you should have to cast a spell that Summons a Demon, and Imprisons it in the object you have prepared. Should also require the use of Vision, so you can see the Demon.

• Lesser Demon – make a Talisman with +1 sorcery pool dice.
• (Regular) Demon – make a Talisman with +2 sorcery pool dice. (or maybe a weak other magick item)
• Greater Demon – make a full-blown magickal item. (or maybe a +3 SP talisman)

Question: How the hell are you supposed to come up with that many Spiritual Attribute Points?
• Lesser would = 8 + 7 = 15. Costly, but still possible.
• Regular would = 16 + 13 = 29. Just barely impossible.
• Greater would = 24 + 21 = 45. Not even remotely within the range of doability.

• Option 1: Break the spell up into two parts. First, Summon the Demon and spend the first half of the required Spiritual Attributes. Then, you either ask it to wait around a while, or set it free and take your chances, while you fill up your Spiritual Attributes again. (Or get a VERY GOOD friend to cast the second half.)
• Option 2: Spell must be a Ritual, and you have to get help from enough other sorcerers who are willing to part with enough of their own Spiritual Attributes to meet your quota. Think it would ever happen? I don’t.
• Option 3: It only costs the higher of the two values between Summoning and Imprisoning (8, 16, or 24), which makes it possible, but still rather costly. This is about on-par with what minor Gifts and major Gifts would cost.
• Option 4: Treat it like Summoning a Demon, but Imprisoning a Spirit. Costs Spiritual Attribute points, and reduces the number of dice available in your Sorcery Pool, making it more difficult, dangerous, and costly than Option 3, but still within the realm of feasibility. This is my favorite option.

My favorite was Option 3. Spells below are for 3, but to make it fit Option 4, remove the Sorcery Pool costs.

Spell: Make (Lesser) Permanent Magickal Object
Summoning 1, Vision 3, Imprisoning 1
Level 5, Target 0 (incorporeal), Range 3 (unlimited), Volume 0 (incorporeal), Duration 0 (instant)
So CTN = 8, without modifications (chanting, gestures, meditating, etc)
Summons a Lesser Spirit or Demon, and Imprisons it into a Lesser Talisman. Costs 8 Spiritual Attribute Points and 2 dice from the Sorcery Pool that cannot be used in this casting.


Spell: Make (Regular) Permanent Magickal Object
Summoning 2, Vision 3, Imprisoning 2
Level 5, Target 0 (incorporeal), Range 3 (unlimited), Volume 0 (incorporeal), Duration 0 (instant)
So CTN = 8, without modifications (chanting, gestures, meditating, etc)
Summons a Spirit or Demon, and Imprisons it into a Talisman. Costs 16 Spiritual Attribute Points and 5 dice from the Sorcery Pool that cannot be used in this casting.


Spell: Make (Greater) Permanent Magickal Object
Summoning 3, Vision 3, Imprisoning 3
Level 5, Target 0 (incorporeal), Range 3 (unlimited), Volume 0 (incorporeal), Duration 0 (instant)
So CTN = 8, without modifications (chanting, gestures, meditating, etc)
Summons a Greater Spirit or Demon, and Imprisons it into a Greater Talisman or permanent magickal object. Costs 24 Spiritual Attribute Points and 10 dice from the Sorcery Pool that cannot be used in this casting.


So the spells aren’t really that hard, and don’t really get any more difficult, CTN wise, for making a more powerful object, but more powerful objects cost more in other ways. You would have to live a busy, dangerous life to make these very often.

Optional Rule: Just like you can have only so many ‘dormant’ spells out there as you have dice in your Sorcery Pool, I think any Permanent Magickal objects you make should be permanently deduced from the number of dormant spells you can have. A Lesser object should take 1 off your total, ‘regular’ ones should take 2 off your total, and Greater ones should take 3 off your total. I think this is a good, fair way to strictly limit the number of these things a sorcerer can make.

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