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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:01 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
The problem is one of game balance. One of the perennial dislikes of Core magic is that it is too powerful. The sorcerer characters overshadow the other PCs. On the one hand you're saying that you'd like to remove or demote the Racial access to magic so that the player only has to A/B their Attributes and Vagaries to get a good sorcerer. On the other you're streamlining the vagaries and allowing them to default. So the sorceror characters are both easier to create and they have greater access to more vagaries for less investment. Where do you see the price being paid for this by the player?


The price would be paid in how much of your SP it takes to cast spells. You require higher TNs or more successes. It's all about the numbers. If you look at my chart (which is very hard to read because I don't know how to set up a table in a post), you'll see that to get maximum results out of every variable, you have to get 15 successes. At TN 6 for a human-sized object, you would need a LOT of dice. Now, the numbers I currently have in the tables are purely guesses, but they could easily be modified to produce a higher or lower powered system.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Personally I don't see any similarity between the vagaries. To me it is quite a long bow to say that manipulating stuff with magic is inherently similar regardless of what is being manipulated. It might suit a particularly high magic environment to have this be the case; to me it doesn't feel grim and gritty.


I see what you're saying. Personally, I don't have a preference either way. I included defaults mainly for the correlation with the combat system. If I decide to leave them in there, it's an easy thing to remove via house rule.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:04 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
One of the things I personally dislike about TRoS Core magic is the idea that mundanes have no protection against magic. The sorcerer "assassin" is unstoppable -- if the sorcerer wants a character to die and has access to the vagaries needed to inflict that kind of death then it is almost a given that the character will die. Even worse it can be a really boring death.

If you are going to have Vagaries behave like Proficiencies then it would be handy if there were offensive and defensive manoeuvers that allow sorcerers to attack/defend themselves and those around them using particular Vagaries. These manoeuvers should integrate with the mundane combat system so that it is straight forward for the referee to integrate arcane and mundane combat in the one tactical environment.


Ah, yes. I see what you're saying now. I definitely have some ideas in mind to handle this already. I'm not sure it'll develop into a full set of offensive and defensive maneuvers, but there will be ways for sorcerers to defend themselves and their companions.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:26 am 
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higgins wrote:
Do you intend to completely remove Formalised spells? I mean, like... giving player this table, and then he rolls and allocates his successes based on the table with no "I've spent weeks to improve my techniques for this spell and I want my -2 TN"?


I haven't thought about formalized spells yet. I imagined magic in my system as very dynamic. The sorcerer channels the magic and then shapes it on the spot to do what he wants. He can never be absolutely sure how much power he's going to be able to summon. Would formalized spells even make sense? I don't think lowering the TN would make much sense with my system. Perhaps you could get bonus dice? I'm open to ideas here. Nothing is set in stone.

higgins wrote:
Also, how do you handle the spells that don't fit the table? Like... climbing on the walls spiderman-style or moving through solid objects. I'd define those both as motion spells, but I don't see how they could be achieved with your table. What about accelerating and decelerating one's body? Always tough to keep in line with the combat system.


Motion spells move objects as in telekinesis. That's what you would use to accelerate or decelerate your body. If you're talking about increasing your Agility that way, it would require you to spend successes on the Finesse variable. You could also use Transformation to enhance your muscles and such. All your other examples would require Transformation. To climb a wall, use Transformation to manipulate your body--give yourself claws or suction cups. Or manipulate the wall to give it handholds or make it sticky. To move through a solid object, use Transformation to temporarily change the object to air.

higgins wrote:
Reading the past of the objects (where has his dagger/horse/whatever been?). Seeing things where you physically couldn't (what happens in the basement of the neighbouring building, etc) and seeing things in the past (in our games, there a certain techniques that one can use to prevent mages to overhear and see everything). Also, one of my characters used Conquer and Vison in TROS terms to dominate birds and then using them for spying. We've never allowed peeking to the future, but it's still the most useful and powerful varagry...


Those are some good abilities. I'll definitely have to think more about including them somehow.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:42 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
The problem is one of game balance. One of the perennial dislikes of Core magic is that it is too powerful. The sorcerer characters overshadow the other PCs. On the one hand you're saying that you'd like to remove or demote the Racial access to magic so that the player only has to A/B their Attributes and Vagaries to get a good sorcerer. On the other you're streamlining the vagaries and allowing them to default. So the sorceror characters are both easier to create and they have greater access to more vagaries for less investment. Where do you see the price being paid for this by the player?


Daeruin wrote:
The price would be paid in how much of your SP it takes to cast spells. You require higher TNs or more successes. It's all about the numbers. If you look at my chart (which is very hard to read because I don't know how to set up a table in a post), you'll see that to get maximum results out of every variable, you have to get 15 successes. At TN 6 for a human-sized object, you would need a LOT of dice. Now, the numbers I currently have in the tables are purely guesses, but they could easily be modified to produce a higher or lower powered system.


Firstly, I have edited your original post and replaced the relevant text with tables. Feel free to edit the post to see how it was done, or if there are other areas of that post that you would like me to convert to tables I am happy to do it. Just let me know.

I can see that the big effects are going to take quite a few successes. So a sorceror will need a decent SP. Let's say you get rid of the Racial Priority pick and convert it to something else. Instead access to magic is conferred by taking a minor Gift. If I were creating a character in this gaming environment I would always take that minor Gift. I might only put a few point into Vagaries rather than Proficiencies but the vast benefit of having access to magic outweighs the small sacrifice in initial -- and potentially ongoing -- development. There are plenty of times when it is handy to have access to some magic.

There isn't anything inherently wrong with most characters deciding to take some kind of magic use. I created The Primitive Talent system for just that purpose of systematizing low level magic useage. It does have a high impact on the gaming environment though.

I like the "on the fly" system of determining the result of a spell cast. It makes magic wild, impossible to tame, onerous to control. I like that feel. Personally I would expand the table, give it more steps, and give each success points to allocate towards this table of values. You could easily create a "never the same spell twice" kind of system which would be a lot of fun to play if the players weren't too detail-orientated.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:44 am 
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Daeruin wrote:
Ah, yes. I see what you're saying now. I definitely have some ideas in mind to handle this already. I'm not sure it'll develop into a full set of offensive and defensive maneuvers, but there will be ways for sorcerers to defend themselves and their companions.


Excellent...

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 3:18 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Firstly, I have edited your original post and replaced the relevant text with tables. Feel free to edit the post to see how it was done, or if there are other areas of that post that you would like me to convert to tables I am happy to do it. Just let me know.


Thank you! I've added one more table.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
I like the "on the fly" system of determining the result of a spell cast. It makes magic wild, impossible to tame, onerous to control. I like that feel. Personally I would expand the table, give it more steps, and give each success points to allocate towards this table of values. You could easily create a "never the same spell twice" kind of system which would be a lot of fun to play if the players weren't too detail-orientated.


I like it, too. Another thing I like about it is that magic also becomes more flexible in some ways. If you roll well, you may end up with a more powerful spell than you needed. Cool! If you roll badly, you can still cast a spell. Maybe you can figure out a way to accomplish your goal another way, simply by allocating your successes a little differently than you had originally planned. It's not all-or-nothing like most magic systems.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys! If you think of anything else, don't hesitate to bring it up. I'll continue to work on it.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:57 am 
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Daeruin wrote:
Another thing I like about it is that magic also becomes more flexible in some ways. If you roll well, you may end up with a more powerful spell than you needed.


What happens to unallocated successes? Can you over-cook a spell? Can you allocate the unnecessary successes from the spell cast to the aging roll (or whatever equivalent you are going to implement)?

In Core, the wizard has to split their SP between successfully casting the spell and resisting the aging effects of the spell. I quite like this mechanically, this trade-off between successful casting and defense. It is a mechanic that is likely to create drama; the wizard whose spell fails to be cast because they were overly worried about aging; the wizard who throws everything into the spell cast and heroically ignores the aging defense.

In this system the wizard is already being tactical in how they allocate their spell successes to get the spell effect they want. Perhaps this system's equivalent of the aging effect in Core could be another column in that table? Allocate one success to this column and you have a particulat ill-effect. Allocate two and it is reduced. Allocate three and there are no ill effects. Allocate 4 and you get a temporary bonus to SP. Or whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:00 am 
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Daeruin wrote:
Thank you! I've added one more table.


Nice work -- tables are so intuitive. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:34 am 
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So far I have kept the aging mechanic pretty much intact, though I've described it rather differently. I haven't decided for sure whether I'm going to keep it or change it. For one thing, I'm developing offensive/defensive magical maneuvers that will require you to split your SP pretty much all the time, unless you're absolutely sure there are no other magic users around (or you trust the ones that are).

I also haven't decided what to do with unspent successes. Perhaps I'll force them to be spent, but I'm not sure I like that idea since it could potentially ruin your spell. You should be rewarded for getting lots of successes. On the other hand, it would definitely enhance the feeling of wildness of the system. So maybe that additional column is the way to go. Any ideas on ill effects for this column? Anybody?

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:30 am 
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Daeruin wrote:
I also haven't decided what to do with unspent successes. (...) So maybe that additional column is the way to go. Any ideas on ill effects for this column? Anybody?
Maybe allow adding effects from the other tables? Possibly at a higher (1 effect for 2 successes) ratio? Like... Creating something with the Generate vagary and then giving it a speed from the motion table?

I'm not sure about the additional column, but one thing is missing from your system I think. You have spell durations, but there's no ability to hold up spells while concentrating on them. In my homebrew system a mage is able to hold up a spell as long as she concentrates on it, thus ignoring the duration limits, but the drawback is that the dice used for that spell can't be restored until the spell is released. The mages can act normally while holding up spells with their concentration. Of course, my system is much more forgiving than TROS in the terms of dice... In TROS, the dice you used are gone, but in my homebrew, each additional spell gives you simply -1 dice pool. Also this is what makes elves (read: savages) so powerful mages in my setting -- since unlike humans they don't sleep, and thus they can keep their spells up as long as they want.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:51 am 
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Daeruin wrote:
I also haven't decided what to do with unspent successes. Perhaps I'll force them to be spent, but I'm not sure I like that idea since it could potentially ruin your spell. You should be rewarded for getting lots of successes.


This is an interesting one. You could argue that the successful wizard is the one that uses their SP effectively. If your spell only needs three successes to give you the parameters you're after then is it good play to allocate 15 dice to the roll? Good play isn't necessarily reflected by lots of successes. In a sense this is what I like about your system -- the wizard has to be very conscious of resource management, and to think on the fly. This adds the sense of magic being a game within the game.

Daeruin wrote:
On the other hand, it would definitely enhance the feeling of wildness of the system. So maybe that additional column is the way to go. Any ideas on ill effects for this column? Anybody?


No ideas from me.

Thinking out loud here: I think it would be quite interesting if the offensive and defensive manoeuvres for wizards related to controlling the fuel for spells. So if spells are powered by a flow of essence, then a wizard has to gain control over the flow before a spell can be powered. If a wizard is by themselves then there is no contest -- they move straight to spell casting. If there is more than one wizard trying to cast then they go through a typical TRoS series of exchanges until one wizard has clear control. Then they cast a spell. Then the essence flow is once again in dispute...

I like this because it means wizards aren't throwing spells at each other as the only form of arcane combat. TRoS spells have always been so hyper-powered that wizard fights tend to lead to lots of collateral damage. There would be fewer spells being cast -- giving the mundanes time to do something or flee. A PC wizard heroically contesting the flow while her companions crunch their way through the enemies' minions. I like the sound of that.

I also like the idea that wizard exchanges would mesh with the melee exchanges. Wizard manoeuvres could also be quite subtle -- draining the essence flow, spiking the flow -- as well as quite spectacular. If these manoeuvers altered the flow then a defensive ploy might be to try and drain the flow to the point where there isn't enough essence available for the enemy wizard to cast the spell they wanted. This could be handled, I guess, by reducind SP as an indicator of a lack of essence flow avaiability at the moment the wizard gains control of the flow and casts their spell.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:40 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
If there is more than one wizard trying to cast then they go through a typical TRoS series of exchanges until one wizard has clear control. Then they cast a spell.
This is way cool! :) It gives Draw attribute a whole other meaning. So, should we handle this as a contest of Draw attributes or...? Well, I can't see much of different maneuvers for it, as the sole goal is to control the magic and then unleash it... or... maybe handle it like terrain roll is handled? You set a number of dice aside to manipulate magic as you fight normally otherwise... and the max number of dice you can set aside is your Draw attribute? Hmmm...

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:08 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
If there is more than one wizard trying to cast then they go through a typical TRoS series of exchanges until one wizard has clear control. Then they cast a spell.


higgins wrote:
This is way cool! :)


:oops:

higgins wrote:
It gives Draw attribute a whole other meaning. So, should we handle this as a contest of Draw attributes or...?


Arcane Combat Pool = Draw + Dice Reserved from SP ... ?

higgins wrote:
Well, I can't see much of different maneuvers for it, as the sole goal is to control the magic and then unleash it...


I would prefer something that doesn't just leave the wizard with the largest dice pool in control of the essence flow. Like combat, I would like to see a variety of ways of getting to an end result.

For example, I think one manoeuvre should be to tap the essence flow or disburse it. If your opponent simply tries to grab control then they have control -- but in that instant there is very little essence to cast. So maybe there is a cap on successes. The capped limit might be too few to cast the spell intended. More decision making -- which is good.

Another manoeuvre would be to spike the essence flow -- so too much essence hits the wizard who next grabs control, and they have to put more SP towards avoiding ill-effects. At a certain point the wizard can't afford to gain control of the essence flow...

Perhaps draw phantasms from the essence flow, illusions that assault the opponent's senses and potentially cause a lapse in concentration.

Many pther possibilities I'm sure. Of course there would need to be a bunch of defensive manoeuvres as well. But the end result should be like melee combat -- a tactical game that results in the opponent's ACP (or whatever) being drained, at which point the winner is free to cast a spell with their remaining SP.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 4:19 am 
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Daeruin wrote:
I also haven't decided what to do with unspent successes. Perhaps I'll force them to be spent, but I'm not sure I like that idea since it could potentially ruin your spell. You should be rewarded for getting lots of successes.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
This is an interesting one. You could argue that the successful wizard is the one that uses their SP effectively. If your spell only needs three successes to give you the parameters you're after then is it good play to allocate 15 dice to the roll? Good play isn't necessarily reflected by lots of successes. In a sense this is what I like about your system -- the wizard has to be very conscious of resource management, and to think on the fly. This adds the sense of magic being a game within the game.

Thanks. You've got me convinced. I was already leaning towards forcing the expenditure of extra successes, and this totally justifies it for me.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
If there is more than one wizard trying to cast then they go through a typical TRoS series of exchanges until one wizard has clear control. Then they cast a spell.

higgins wrote:
This is way cool! :)

I agree! You guys are describing almost exactly what I'm working on! I've got a maneuver for sorcerers to entwine their own flow of magic with someone else, with the effect that they can add or subtract their own successes from the original spell. You can defend against this, of course. I've also got maneuvers for sorcerers to try to hijack a spell, and ways to try to hide your spells or shield them.

The only thing I don't like about Ian's idea is that only one wizard can ever cast a spell at one time. I think each wizard should be free to cast a spell at the same time as another wizard, if they wish. They'd just better make sure it's the right one for the situation, or they're toast. Kind of like throwing red-red in a physical combat.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
I would prefer something that doesn't just leave the wizard with the largest dice pool in control of the essence flow. Like combat, I would like to see a variety of ways of getting to an end result.

I totally agree. I'm trying to come up with additional maneuvers, but like Higgins, I can't think of very many. I keep thinking of maneuvers that are really just spells. Ian, you threw in a good example of this conundrum:

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Perhaps draw phantasms from the essence flow, illusions that assault the opponent's senses and potentially cause a lapse in concentration.

That could be done as a regular spell. Personally, I like the idea of wizards main activity being the casting of spells, not just some invisible mental struggle. I like my magic to be visual and physical--stuff flying all over the place, fire erupting, people screaming, demons wreaking havoc. That's just my personal preference.

Keep in mind that having other wizards around will require you to split your pool for defensive or offensive purposes, and hence combat spells will typically be weaker than usual. Winning a combat with one huge spell and lots of collateral damage will be less frequent, I imagine. Besides, the big spells are already harder in this system and would probably require multiple sorcerers working together to pull off.

I totally agree that there should be multiple maneuvers and tactical options--but I'm not sure I like anything that simply makes the casting of spells impossible. Redirected, changed, deflected...yes. Once magic is out there, it has to DO something.

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 Post subject: Re: An Alternative Magic System for TROS
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 4:32 am 
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Daeruin wrote:
I also haven't decided what to do with unspent successes. (...) So maybe that additional column is the way to go. Any ideas on ill effects for this column? Anybody?
higgins wrote:
Maybe allow adding effects from the other tables? Possibly at a higher (1 effect for 2 successes) ratio? Like... Creating something with the Generate vagary and then giving it a speed from the motion table?

Most of the time effects from other tables won't be appropriate. Besides, I was looking more for negative effects.

higgins wrote:
... one thing is missing from your system I think. You have spell durations, but there's no ability to hold up spells while concentrating on them. In my homebrew system a mage is able to hold up a spell as long as she concentrates on it, thus ignoring the duration limits, but the drawback is that the dice used for that spell can't be restored until the spell is released. The mages can act normally while holding up spells with their concentration.

As I mentioned once before, my philosophy is that once magic is out there, something has to be done with it. My idea is that you can't just hold open the conduit continually. Magic comes in short bursts that have to be spent. You have to decide right at the beginning how long you want the magic to last (by spending successes on the Duration column of the tables), and that costs you in other areas. If you choose a duration of 10 minutes, the magic is there for that long no matter what. You can drop the spell, do something else, and then come back to it as long as you're within the duration. That magic is yours to use unless someone else hijacks it.

That was my initial thinking, at least. Does that sort of accomplish what you want? Do you like it?

higgins wrote:
Of course, my system is much more forgiving than TROS in the terms of dice... In TROS, the dice you used are gone, but in my homebrew, each additional spell gives you simply -1 dice pool. Also this is what makes elves (read: savages) so powerful mages in my setting -- since unlike humans they don't sleep, and thus they can keep their spells up as long as they want.

I haven't really decided on refresh rates at all, and that could easily change things based on how it impacts the overall system. I am leaning towards something more like your idea. I want sorcerers to be able to cast multiple fast spells in a single combat. Dice will have to refresh pretty fast for that to happen.

I love all these ideas. Keep 'em coming!

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