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 Post subject: Struggling with Perception
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:14 pm 
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Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Crow Caller wrote:
higgins wrote:
I'm not sure I'm giving proper Per TNs to be fair towards skilled characters.
Attribute TN's are fixed at TN 6, and it is the number of successes that differ. These are based on the table on Page 31 of the Companion.
Crow Caller wrote:
higgins wrote:
So, how many successes would one need on Per TN6 roll to notice a guy stalking around the camp (Sneak 3 successes)...
a) at night (camp quiet)
b) at night (camp noisy)
c) at dusk/dawn (camp quiet)
d) at dusk/dawn (camp noisy)
e) in plain daylight (camp quiet)
f) in plain daylight (camp noisy)
Firstly you have to break your "sneak" into Sneak and Camoflague. With Sneak 3 and Camo 3 the answers are:

a) 3 listen, 9 spot
b) 6 listen, 9 spot
c) 3 listen, 6 spot
d) 6 listen, 6 spot
e) 3 listen, 3 spot
f) 6 listen, 3 spot

There are also modifiers for Cover. If the theif has no cover reduce the required successes for all the Spots by 2, if there is heavy cover then increase them by 2.

Note, this is covered in the Core Book under Camo and Sneak, but deals with TN's, as I have converted over to Successes required I extrapolated the TN's to successes, YMMV. The key is consistency.
Basically you're multiplying the required number of successes with 2 if the task is hard and with 3 if it's really hard? Doesn't it make most rolls impossible? I mean 9 successes? It's even mechanically unfeasible to most guards... and twice over. Most of them have only 4 dice to begin with.

Crow Caller wrote:
higgins wrote:
Table 1.1. on MRB p. 6 (general guidelines)
Table 3.1. on MRB p. 33 (specific guidelines)
Table 3.2. on MRB p. 38 (specific guidelines)
Table 3.3. on MRB p. 40 (specific guidelines)

If this is all so straightforward, why am I still struggling with assessing the Per TNs? Well, I can tell you. Every other damn roll has a tightly defined TN tied to it. All weapons have it, all skills have it, but the damn Per doesn't and it's tough as hell to struggle with that thing without any kind of certainty.
Weapon TN's are set, but they are different for each weapon. Spot TN's are set but they are different for each time. What is the difference? It is just about familiarising yourself with the rules.

Same with the manuevers, they cost different amounts of dice, and handle differently, it is just about getting used to them.
I disagree. Weapon TN is written on sheet. Skill TN is written on sheet. Maneuver cost is written on sheet. Per TN has to be evaluated every single time using three different sets of guidelines. I'd say it's vastly different.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Struggling with Perception
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:25 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:07 am
Posts: 953
Location: Melbourne, Australia
higgins wrote:
Crow Caller wrote:
higgins wrote:
I'm not sure I'm giving proper Per TNs to be fair towards skilled characters.
Attribute TN's are fixed at TN 6, and it is the number of successes that differ. These are based on the table on Page 31 of the Companion.
Crow Caller wrote:
higgins wrote:
So, how many successes would one need on Per TN6 roll to notice a guy stalking around the camp (Sneak 3 successes)...
a) at night (camp quiet)
b) at night (camp noisy)
c) at dusk/dawn (camp quiet)
d) at dusk/dawn (camp noisy)
e) in plain daylight (camp quiet)
f) in plain daylight (camp noisy)
Firstly you have to break your "sneak" into Sneak and Camoflague. With Sneak 3 and Camo 3 the answers are:

a) 3 listen, 9 spot
b) 6 listen, 9 spot
c) 3 listen, 6 spot
d) 6 listen, 6 spot
e) 3 listen, 3 spot
f) 6 listen, 3 spot

There are also modifiers for Cover. If the theif has no cover reduce the required successes for all the Spots by 2, if there is heavy cover then increase them by 2.

Note, this is covered in the Core Book under Camo and Sneak, but deals with TN's, as I have converted over to Successes required I extrapolated the TN's to successes, YMMV. The key is consistency.
Basically you're multiplying the required number of successes with 2 if the task is hard and with 3 if it's really hard? Doesn't it make most rolls impossible? I mean 9 successes? It's even mechanically unfeasible to most guards... and twice over. Most of them have only 4 dice to begin with.


Nope, not multiplying, adding. To spot someone at night is extremely difficult. It costs 6 more successes. Ofcourse the person sneaking can't see anything either. Ofcourse if the ground the person is trying to stealth across has no cover, then it only costs 4 successes more.

This is extremely realistic. One must remember, that at night time, unless there is a good full moon then you really can't see anything, its not like nowadays where we have street lights lighting everything up. Out in the woods, it is damn dark.

There was a battle in South Africa between the Boers and Zulus, called the Battle of Blood River. The Boers got news that some 20,000 Zulu were on their way, there were only 400 odd Boers. Their leader set up their wagon train in a big "D" formation.

Anyway, sometime in the Night, the Boers could hear the 20,000 Zulus getting closer and closer, they were looking for the Boers. Anyway, it was too dark and neither side could see the other. In the morning the Boers discovered to their surprise the Zulus were about 50 meters away. 20,000 of them!

That's how difficult it is to see at night ;)

Quote:
Crow Caller wrote:
higgins wrote:
Table 1.1. on MRB p. 6 (general guidelines)
Table 3.1. on MRB p. 33 (specific guidelines)
Table 3.2. on MRB p. 38 (specific guidelines)
Table 3.3. on MRB p. 40 (specific guidelines)

If this is all so straightforward, why am I still struggling with assessing the Per TNs? Well, I can tell you. Every other damn roll has a tightly defined TN tied to it. All weapons have it, all skills have it, but the damn Per doesn't and it's tough as hell to struggle with that thing without any kind of certainty.
Weapon TN's are set, but they are different for each weapon. Spot TN's are set but they are different for each time. What is the difference? It is just about familiarising yourself with the rules.

Same with the manuevers, they cost different amounts of dice, and handle differently, it is just about getting used to them.
I disagree. Weapon TN is written on sheet. Skill TN is written on sheet. Maneuver cost is written on sheet. Per TN has to be evaluated every single time using three different sets of guidelines. I'd say it's vastly different.


So maybe you just need to include the PER mods on your sheet? You use fewer skills don't you? Take out some of the lines for skills, and put a little modifeir table there.

Cheers.

_________________
"It was hard-fought, a desperate affair that could have gone badly; if God had not helped me, the outcome would have been quick and fatal" (115) ~ Beowulf after defeating Grendle's Mother.


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