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 Post subject: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2008 10:24 pm 
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GaGrin wrote:
(TRoS is) still perfectly playable with low to no SAs firing and I'm personally quite strict (or so it seems from reading the forums) about what allows an SA to apply. It just means your players have to realise that without motivation they aren't superman.


I grabbed this extract from GaGrin's post in relation to TRoS combat.

Core is fairly clear in regards to how often SAs fire. Of course like a lot of things it doesn't state it directly it has to be inferred from the hints. OK, it's not that bad but you know what I mean. TRoS Core states that each player should receive 2 - 3 SA points per gaming session. To receive SA points the PC's SAs have to be firing in a scene. When a PC has multiple SAs firing in a scene only the most relevant SA receives a point. Therefore, the referee needs to be providing each player with two or three SA-relevant scenes per gaming session.

What constitutes a gaming session will vary from group to group. In my Uni days we'd happily run a game for eight or twelve hours. These days they are three hour sessions.

OK, so what does it mean if you aren't hitting the target of 2 - 3 points per player per session? The answer to that is quite straightforward -- based on what SAs represent. They are the player's reason for playing the game. If the character's SAs are not being engaged regularly then the player isn't being engaged. They're not getting their time in the spotlight.

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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 3:29 am 
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I'm glad you posted this. I did not remember that only the most relevant of all the currently firing SAs receives a point. I've been doing that wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:26 am 
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We don't roll dice that often in my games, and so, SAs don't get a chance to "fire". It doesn't mean the players act according to them, and therefore, I often give SA points for SAs that didn't fire, because they still did come into play and affect the character's actions. To me and my players, SAs are more than just dice pools, they're guidelines telling you what the character would do. (I have a player who emptied another player's bank account through paypal because he has no moral and a Drive SA (become rich), there were little to no rolls involved, so the SA didn't "fire" but he still earned two Drive points at the end of the session even though I personnally found his actions pathetic and he'll pay it dearly next session cause he's been seen by another player :roll: )


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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:09 am 
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Taho wrote:
We don't roll dice that often in my games, and so, SAs don't get a chance to "fire".


You don't roll two or three times per game session? Seriously? So the SA points are just experience points -- traded in for power-ups but no other regular mechanical influence on the game?

Taho wrote:
To me and my players, SAs are more than just dice pools, they're guidelines telling you what the character would do.


What the character would do? How static are the SAs in your game? Do you head down the path of deriving the SAs from the character's background, that they represent the core of the character's being?

Do you still hit the 2 - 3 point per game target or do you aim for more or less?

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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:19 am 
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Daeruin wrote:
I'm glad you posted this. I did not remember that only the most relevant of all the currently firing SAs receives a point. I've been doing that wrong.


The issue from my perspective is that more often than not the bulk of a gaming session revolves around one particular character. Three hour session I might squeeze five or six scenes into the evening's gaming. The bulk of those scenes center on one particular character, so lets say there are three scenes that bounce of their plot arc(s). That character is going to have one or more SAs firing in those scenes -- after all, the content of the scene is based on their SAs. Other characters may have an SA firing in those scenes if I've managed to intertwine their plot arcs but the scene is really based on this session's main character. So that character has, say, three scenes with three SAs firing. As referee I can hardly give them 9 SA points for following the plot I've created based on their nominated area of interest (as defined in the SAs). So it has to be the most relevant SA that receives the point.

I know some gaming groups ignore the 2 - 3 point maxim and, well, if that suits their style of play then so be it. Personally i think that characters develop too quickly if you hand out more than 5 SA points to a character per session on a regular basis.

The exception to this is Luck/Drama. If you house rule that Luck/Drama must be expended in-camera and not for character development then I think you can be fairly liberal with the Luck/Drama hand-outs. Their in-game use becomes strategic and it allows the players to drive the game in the direction they want to head, reinforcing the SA mechanic in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 8:03 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Taho wrote:
We don't roll dice that often in my games, and so, SAs don't get a chance to "fire".


You don't roll two or three times per game session? Seriously? So the SA points are just experience points -- traded in for power-ups but no other regular mechanical influence on the game?


Each player probably has two or three rolls, maybe five to eight in intense games (I use the tRoS system in a setting of modern intrigue and mystery, so combat is fairly rare and usually settled quickly), so SAs do get a chance to fire, though a very small one. As I said a few lines later in that former post, SAs correspond to the personnality and philosophy of the character and are guidelines that point the player in the right direction when in doubt as to how some things should be dealt with. If they do get a chance to fire, then great, I'm always happy to see it happen, because it makes things more dramatic and exciting

Taho wrote:
To me and my players, SAs are more than just dice pools, they're guidelines telling you what the character would do.


Ian.Plumb wrote:
What the character would do? How static are the SAs in your game? Do you head down the path of deriving the SAs from the character's background, that they represent the core of the character's being?

Do you still hit the 2 - 3 point per game target or do you aim for more or less?

Regards,


I do believe that SAs derive from who the character is and what they've been through (could it be otherwise? :? ), all but Destiny. But I don't derive them myself, the players choose the SAs for their characters, of course. And I do hit about 2-3 points per session, because if a player played his or her character well according to their SAs, in a way that's relevant to the plot or the situation, I often give them a point for it.

What do you consider "static" for SAs?


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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 9:56 pm 
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I'm stuck on MSN atm - which makes gaming sessions take much longer than they should, and creates vague spaces of non-tension. The rules (and my own interpretation of SAs) do state that you only get points for putting youself at risk due to the SAs motivation.

I do think I need to relax when I allow SAs to apply a little more than I have been - I've had two sessions and the guy's only managed to gain 1 SA point and 1 drama point. Just cause its taking so sodding long to describe everything, do the rolls and ask for rerolls etc. :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 10:06 pm 
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Taho wrote:
We don't roll dice that often in my games, and so, SAs don't get a chance to "fire".


Ian.Plumb wrote:
You don't roll two or three times per game session? Seriously? So the SA points are just experience points -- traded in for power-ups but no other regular mechanical influence on the game?


Taho wrote:
Each player probably has two or three rolls, maybe five to eight in intense games (I use the tRoS system in a setting of modern intrigue and mystery, so combat is fairly rare and usually settled quickly), so SAs do get a chance to fire, though a very small one.


Ignoring combat -- it is a rare occurrence in my game as well -- how often do the character's roll for their skills and attributes? Rarely, obviously I guess -- so what system do you use to resolve events and arbitrate non-combat conflict?

Taho wrote:
As I said a few lines later in that former post, SAs correspond to the personnality and philosophy of the character and are guidelines that point the player in the right direction when in doubt as to how some things should be dealt with. If they do get a chance to fire, then great, I'm always happy to see it happen, because it makes things more dramatic and exciting.


I understand that your players are expected to use their character's SAs to guide their character's decision making -- but with rolling dice occurring rarely in a game, and SAs rarely influencing even those few rolls, does that mean that the only function of SAs in your game from a mechanics perspective is in their expenditure for character development?

Taho wrote:
To me and my players, SAs are more than just dice pools, they're guidelines telling you what the character would do.


Ian.Plumb wrote:
What the character would do? How static are the SAs in your game? Do you head down the path of deriving the SAs from the character's background, that they represent the core of the character's being? Do you still hit the 2 - 3 point per game target or do you aim for more or less?


Taho wrote:
I do believe that SAs derive from who the character is and what they've been through (could it be otherwise? :? )


The rules as written describe SAs as a meta function, used by the player to influence the direction of the scenario and a method for the referee to reward the player that follows the scenario plot. As such the player is free to change them as they see fit, with no recourse to the character's previous actions or history.

Taho wrote:
What do you consider "static" for SAs?


I expect my players to change the description of at least one of their character's SAs every four or five gaming sessions. If they remain unchanging for ten sessions then I would see that as problematic -- the player may be losing interest and isn't participating in the development of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:02 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Ignoring combat -- it is a rare occurrence in my game as well -- how often do the character's roll for their skills and attributes? Rarely, obviously I guess -- so what system do you use to resolve events and arbitrate non-combat conflict?

Logic ;)

Ian.Plumb wrote:
I understand that your players are expected to use their character's SAs to guide their character's decision making -- but with rolling dice occurring rarely in a game, and SAs rarely influencing even those few rolls, does that mean that the only function of SAs in your game from a mechanics perspective is in their expenditure for character development?

That AND when they do provide dice for rolls, which does happen every once in a while.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
The rules as written describe SAs as a meta function, used by the player to influence the direction of the scenario and a method for the referee to reward the player that follows the scenario plot. As such the player is free to change them as they see fit, with no recourse to the character's previous actions or history.

I expect my players to change the description of at least one of their character's SAs every four or five gaming sessions. If they remain unchanging for ten sessions then I would see that as problematic -- the player may be losing interest and isn't participating in the development of the game.


I've never had a player rewriting an SA except after the first or the second session, when they realise their SAs didn't really fit their vision of the character in the end. Rewriting SA to me would be a groundbreaking experience for a character, a deep alteration of their psyche and philosophy (like a broken soul who ends up losing his Conscience, or someone losing their faith for such and such reasons, or falling out of love, etc.) So I'd recommend it only in extreme circumstances (that have never occured so far).

I guess we have a different take on SAs ;) I'm not saying mine is better, we just use them as best we can to fit our own storytelling, I suppose.


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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:51 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
The rules as written describe SAs as a meta function, used by the player to influence the direction of the scenario and a method for the referee to reward the player that follows the scenario plot. As such the player is free to change them as they see fit, with no recourse to the character's previous actions or history.

I expect my players to change the description of at least one of their character's SAs every four or five gaming sessions. If they remain unchanging for ten sessions then I would see that as problematic -- the player may be losing interest and isn't participating in the development of the game.


Taho wrote:
I've never had a player rewriting an SA except after the first or the second session, when they realise their SAs didn't really fit their vision of the character in the end. Rewriting SA to me would be a groundbreaking experience for a character, a deep alteration of their psyche and philosophy (like a broken soul who ends up losing his Conscience, or someone losing their faith for such and such reasons, or falling out of love, etc.) So I'd recommend it only in extreme circumstances (that have never occured so far).


I can see how this would work in traditional gaming -- referee builds an event-driven scenario, players are on the periphery looking in and trying to work out what is going on before it is too late -- but I don't see how it would work in a TRoS game, at least not after a few scenarios have been completed by the characters. In TRoS, the scenario is SA-driven rather than event-driven. Each scene within the scenario engages at least one SA of one of the characters, and hopefully more. So at some point doesn't a rut develop if nobody is changing their SAs? At some point don't the players turn to one another and say -- "Come on guys, do we really want another scenario that revolves around Captain Brogha's "Passion: Love for wife, Stephanie"? We've had three of those..."? At some point doesn't the referee say "Guys, I've been throwing these new plot arcs out there and nobodies' picking them up. I need to get some idea of where you want the next few scenarios to head..."?

Of course I'm not saying that I think your game doesn't work. Far from it -- it obviously does because you have a group of players who keep coming back for more. Rather, I'm saying I don't understand how it works based on my understanding of TRoS.

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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 11:49 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Ian.Plumb wrote:
The rules as written describe SAs as a meta function, used by the player to influence the direction of the scenario and a method for the referee to reward the player that follows the scenario plot. As such the player is free to change them as they see fit, with no recourse to the character's previous actions or history.

I expect my players to change the description of at least one of their character's SAs every four or five gaming sessions. If they remain unchanging for ten sessions then I would see that as problematic -- the player may be losing interest and isn't participating in the development of the game.


Taho wrote:
I've never had a player rewriting an SA except after the first or the second session, when they realise their SAs didn't really fit their vision of the character in the end. Rewriting SA to me would be a groundbreaking experience for a character, a deep alteration of their psyche and philosophy (like a broken soul who ends up losing his Conscience, or someone losing their faith for such and such reasons, or falling out of love, etc.) So I'd recommend it only in extreme circumstances (that have never occured so far).


I can see how this would work in traditional gaming -- referee builds an event-driven scenario, players are on the periphery looking in and trying to work out what is going on before it is too late -- but I don't see how it would work in a TRoS game, at least not after a few scenarios have been completed by the characters. In TRoS, the scenario is SA-driven rather than event-driven. Each scene within the scenario engages at least one SA of one of the characters, and hopefully more. So at some point doesn't a rut develop if nobody is changing their SAs? At some point don't the players turn to one another and say -- "Come on guys, do we really want another scenario that revolves around Captain Brogha's "Passion: Love for wife, Stephanie"? We've had three of those..."? At some point doesn't the referee say "Guys, I've been throwing these new plot arcs out there and nobodies' picking them up. I need to get some idea of where you want the next few scenarios to head..."?

Of course I'm not saying that I think your game doesn't work. Far from it -- it obviously does because you have a group of players who keep coming back for more. Rather, I'm saying I don't understand how it works based on my understanding of TRoS.


On the other hand, the SAs are about what is most important to the characters. Captain Brogha's wife is one of the most important things to him. She's the reason he puts his life on the line. Short of a massive falling out or one of his enemies killing her to get at him, this is unlikely to change. Also, it takes quite a lot for someone who is devout enough to have a Faith SA to either no longer have it or for his faith to change. A character's Drive is only likely to change after he's successful; while Destiny would only change at the end of one hell of a story arc. Oath could change fairly regularly; once the oath is fulfilled it would no longer be applicable. Passion could change as a characters feelings change; forgiving a man you hate; a massive falling out with a friend, or falling in love with someone else, but this would be a rare thing (unless your character is called Romeo :P). This, of course, is simply how I view the SAs; and just as Taho's system brings the players back every session, I'm sure your's does too. One man's meat is another man's poison, so to speak.


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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 12:49 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I can see how this would work in traditional gaming -- referee builds an event-driven scenario, players are on the periphery looking in and trying to work out what is going on before it is too late -- but I don't see how it would work in a TRoS game, at least not after a few scenarios have been completed by the characters. In TRoS, the scenario is SA-driven rather than event-driven. Each scene within the scenario engages at least one SA of one of the characters, and hopefully more. So at some point doesn't a rut develop if nobody is changing their SAs? At some point don't the players turn to one another and say -- "Come on guys, do we really want another scenario that revolves around Captain Brogha's "Passion: Love for wife, Stephanie"? We've had three of those..."? At some point doesn't the referee say "Guys, I've been throwing these new plot arcs out there and nobodies' picking them up. I need to get some idea of where you want the next few scenarios to head..."?


Hector wrote:
Captain Brogha's wife is one of the most important things to him. She's the reason he puts his life on the line. Short of a massive falling out or one of his enemies killing her to get at him, this is unlikely to change.


OK, let's throw a couple of concepts into the ring. For the sake of an example, the character Captain Brogha has an SA of "Passion: Love for wife, Stephanie".

1) When Captain Brogha has a 5 in this SA he gets five extra dice to his rolls when the SA is relevant to the scene. When he has a 0 in this SA he gets no extra dice even when the scene is clearly relevant to the SA. From a Sim perspective it is therefore clear that the degree of passion Captain Brogha feels for his wife is directly related to the value in the SA. The more he loves her the better he performs.

2) The player decides to change his character's SA "Passion: Love for wife, Stephanie" to "Drive: Find the killer of Stephanie's brother" because Stephanie's brother Philippe has been found murdered in the current scene. This means Captain Brogha no longer loves his wife, Stephanie.

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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:21 am 
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Hi All,

Ian Plumb said:
Quote:
OK, let's throw a couple of concepts into the ring. For the sake of an example, the character Captain Brogha has an SA of "Passion: Love for wife, Stephanie".

1) When Captain Brogha has a 5 in this SA he gets five extra dice to his rolls when the SA is relevant to the scene. When he has a 0 in this SA he gets no extra dice even when the scene is clearly relevant to the SA. From a Sim perspective it is therefore clear that the degree of passion Captain Brogha feels for his wife is directly related to the value in the SA. The more he loves her the better he performs.

2) The player decides to change his character's SA "Passion: Love for wife, Stephanie" to "Drive: Find the killer of Stephanie's brother" because Stephanie's brother Philippe has been found murdered in the current scene. This means Captain Brogha no longer loves his wife, Stephanie.



On point 2 Last sentence, No it just means that Captain Brouga's love for Stephanie is currently not inspiring him.

I may consider allowing the rating in the Drive to be subsumed into the Passion at the end of this arc, providing that there is some logical overlap, but, of course, at a reduced rate. Probably at 1 in 2 (down).

I would also consider allowing Captain Brouga to have 6+ SA's but only allowing 5 to be higher than 0. Also only long term SA's can be replaced like this and kept at 0.

Simon Burling


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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 1:17 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
OK, let's throw a couple of concepts into the ring. For the sake of an example, the character Captain Brogha has an SA of "Passion: Love for wife, Stephanie".

1) When Captain Brogha has a 5 in this SA he gets five extra dice to his rolls when the SA is relevant to the scene. When he has a 0 in this SA he gets no extra dice even when the scene is clearly relevant to the SA. From a Sim perspective it is therefore clear that the degree of passion Captain Brogha feels for his wife is directly related to the value in the SA. The more he loves her the better he performs.

2) The player decides to change his character's SA "Passion: Love for wife, Stephanie" to "Drive: Find the killer of Stephanie's brother" because Stephanie's brother Philippe has been found murdered in the current scene. This means Captain Brogha no longer loves his wife, Stephanie.

Regards,

OK, what about, he doesn't re-write that SA and goes for the killer of Stephanie's brother simply because he loves her. Does he need a drive to do that or won't his passion serve the same purpose? I believe it will, therefore I would not call for an SA re-write in such a case, and you don't have to wonder whether he loves his wife still or not. The way I see SAs, they're deep emotional commitment to something, that's why I don't see them changing. This way they probably don't come in as often as they do in your game, but I believe that it makes their coming in all the more important and story-driving (yes that's a word... now :roll: ). We just have a different take on tRoS, I guess ;)


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 Post subject: Re: When do SAs apply in a scene?
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:18 pm 
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Taho wrote:
OK, what about, he doesn't re-write that SA and goes for the killer of Stephanie's brother simply because he loves her.


As I see it this creates three significant problems:

Firstly, the implication here is that the referee has introduced the murder of Stephanies' brother in order to trigger the SA in this scene. The player, on the other hand, doesn't see it as relevant to that SA. The player, indeed several of the players, are not interested in interrupting their current plot arcs in order to pursue the newly introduced murder investigation plot arc. So the player group decide to leave it to the authorities to pursue the murderer. The referee docks the character an SA point for ignoring their SA, having prepared the murder investigation material and being somewhat annoyed that this work is now going to waste.

Secondly, it sets the precedent that material that is weakly linked to the character's SAs will trigger those SAs. When the character's SAs are unchanging by definition it implies that all material prepared by the referee will trigger those SAs -- after all, TRoS Core is clear that the referee prepares scenario material based on the character's SAs. If those SAs remain unchanging then the referee is still required to base the scenario material on those SAs. This cannot help but lead to weaker and weaker links to those SAs, with a commensurate relaxing of the definition of when those SAs are triggered.

Thirdly, the introduction of plot arcs becomes generally problematic. The referee has to be able to introduce new plot arcs periodically -- and the players have to be free to ignore them. In Core, this is handled through SAs. The referee introduces a new plot arc, one or more of the players decide it is something they would like to pursue so they modify their SA. At that point it is clear to the referee that the new plot arc needs to be fleshed out to become a main plot arc. On the other hand, if none of the players adjust their SAs the referee knows immediately that the plot arc is a fizzer and can be ignored. Fleshing out the plot arc would be a waste of time, and forming scenes involving the plot arc would simply be railroading the players into something they do not wish to pursue in camera.

Regards,

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