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 Post subject: Re: Round by Round A vs B question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:05 pm 
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ack I'm feeling pressure!


On a side comment, why do the core rules not work sufficiently or address archers and magic vs. timing well?

Secondly, has anyone thought about cobbling together a compilation v.2.0 book that makes the core book complete?


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 Post subject: Re: Round by Round A vs B question
PostPosted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:31 pm 
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Slymoon wrote:
On a side comment, why do the core rules not work sufficiently or address archers and magic vs. timing well?
The refresh mechanic in core is clunky. They do work equally well for timing, but core doesn't include any comprehensive examples how shooting into close combat looks like, TFOB provides that.

Slymoon wrote:
Secondly, has anyone thought about cobbling together a compilation v.2.0 book that makes the core book complete?
We'd see nothing better, but sadly, the owner of the licence simply doesn't care. Thus we are creating the concept of EoS -- to write a game in the spirit of TROS. Just check The Enigma of Steel subforum.

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Round by Round A vs B question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:03 pm 
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Regarding archers and range...

In a system that specifically makes distance pretty much null and void.
(why is the in combat movement chart included anyway?? or character movement speeds in general??)

Back to the question, archers and range.
What to determine the ranges and thus the modifiers?

Do I as senechal just arbitrarily place a character at medium range because that is how it is in my mind?

If the player wishes to have been in short, do I then allow him a terrain roll to do that?

To add, ranges are different with different weapons. Why are they included at all?

How do you handle ranges in a game?


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 Post subject: Re: Round by Round A vs B question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:10 pm 
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Slymoon wrote:
In a system that specifically makes distance pretty much null and void.
(why is the in combat movement chart included anyway?? or character movement speeds in general??)
Which chart exactly do you mean?

Slymoon wrote:
What to determine the ranges and thus the modifiers?

Do I as senechal just arbitrarily place a character at medium range because that is how it is in my mind?
Just place the character in the range that makes sense. If the law enforcement bashes into someone's bedroom for example, I'm not going thinking of any type of range. I'm thinking how large the room is, where the guy is, and how large is the distance. Now you can determine the ranges, as one of the guards carries a pistol and another a musket, the range penalty is likely different for each. Also, if there's an assassin on the roof, he has most likely chosen a range which he is confident in succeeding.

If there's a large group of people or combatants, I simply use a battle map. A checkered tablecloth works wonders for judging distances.

Slymoon wrote:
If the player wishes to have been in short, do I then allow him a terrain roll to do that?
I don't see any point of rolling. Just have him move closer.

Slymoon wrote:
To add, ranges are different with different weapons. Why are they included at all?
Core book and TFOB handle ranges differently... I'm assuming you mean TFOB ranges as IIRC core book has no medium range. I find ranges useful and yes, they are different with different weapons. In short, I don't understand this question. :)

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Round by Round A vs B question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:14 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Slymoon wrote:
In a system that specifically makes distance pretty much null and void.
(why is the in combat movement chart included anyway?? or character movement speeds in general??)
Which chart exactly do you mean?


My mistake, there is not actually a chart. However note the pages as reference as I did. Core Rule Book:
p.77
Terrain modifiers
Attack is considered Hurried or Sprinting, Defense is considered Normal regarding movement speed. Stated in text and implied by the TN modifers chart.

p.92
Granted this is considered out of combat however it is a description of the movements which are mentioned inside of combat.
Hurried = 2x movent in feet per round.
Sprinting = 4x movement in feet per round.

Considering the system why should this even be defined? who cares about movement/ distance in combat or out of combat. Beyond approximate travel times in certain terrains for travel between places.

Lastly:
p.85
Armor & Shields
Has movement modifiers. Why?

All of those numbers *should* be resolved with words.
Fast, Normal, Slow, Crawl (or Sprinting, Hurried...)
Armorwise: Plate armor causes you to be very slow of foot. add a +TN modifier for terrain rolls specifically when used for movement.

higgins wrote:
Slymoon wrote:
What to determine the ranges and thus the modifiers?

Do I as senechal just arbitrarily place a character at medium range because that is how it is in my mind?
Just place the character in the range that makes sense. If the law enforcement bashes into someone's bedroom for example, I'm not going thinking of any type of range. I'm thinking how large the room is, where the guy is, and how large is the distance. Now you can determine the ranges, as one of the guards carries a pistol and another a musket, the range penalty is likely different for each. Also, if there's an assassin on the roof, he has most likely chosen a range which he is confident in succeeding.

If there's a large group of people or combatants, I simply use a battle map. A checkered tablecloth works wonders for judging distances.


Which makes perfect sense for a spacially fixed setting: a room, a clearing in a very dense wood and so on.

However, In a setting that can allow variable ranges this goes back to the senechal 'arbitrarily' screwing the player if he wants to. Ie: "Yes you were at short range, but unfortunately the duel you wanted to shoot into has roamed away from you. You are now at medium."
Are you saying the archer can tell me that he wants to stay at short range then he automatically is?

I can accept the assassin placing himself at his optimal distance or any other ambush type settings. But in active combat, an arbitrary fluctuation in MP based on my whims (decision) could definately cause distress in the group.

Lastly,
Using a battlemap, hex map or checkered tablecloth now places the whole concept of distance right before the players in a concrete visual format. Would that not open up the movement issues previously discussed with round-by-round combat?

higgins wrote:
Slymoon wrote:
If the player wishes to have been in short, do I then allow him a terrain roll to do that?
I don't see any point of rolling. Just have him move closer.

See above comment.

higgins wrote:
Slymoon wrote:
To add, ranges are different with different weapons. Why are they included at all?
Core book and TFOB handle ranges differently... I'm assuming you mean TFOB ranges as IIRC core book has no medium range. I find ranges useful and yes, they are different with different weapons. In short, I don't understand this question. :)

I do not recall if core had medium or not, I just used that as a distance reference. The question reflects the comments above.

Given all the previous posts that I have read and the core book. (minus all the movement information which is arguable useless). The system is largely designed for imagination. ie: reading a book.
The senechal describes a scene the players act on it.
If you give a 'distance' in the description, players now given a 'concrete' fact. Will begin to judge the entire scene based off that.
In this items may come up like:
"You said the archer was 40 feet away from the combat and that the new enemy that entered the scene was 20 feet on the other side of that, How could he have moved 60 feet in 2 exchanges?" In the case of the above example, I picture an enemy seeing the battle and charging the archer, described in words: "You see another bandit charging you form the other side of the duel." Then there is little argument. I have given no distance exactly like writing in a book, which allows the reader to imagine the scene in a million different ways.

So the question is, Why do missile weapons give ranges in numbers?
Short range for a throwing knife is not the same as short range for a bow. However many players do understand that if someone is in knife range they are infact a few paces away, where someone in bow range could be easily twice as far and have just as easy of a shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Round by Round A vs B question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:16 pm 
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Slymoon wrote:
Considering the system why should this even be defined? who cares about movement/ distance in combat or out of combat. Beyond approximate travel times in certain terrains for travel between places.
Alas, TROS is not a perfect system. It has many narrativist and simulationist mechanics mixed and indeed, sometimes a better design choices could be made.

Slymoon wrote:
Are you saying the archer can tell me that he wants to stay at short range then he automatically is?
If he has the means and faces no trouble doing that, I can't see why not. Say, the character is on the horse, another is on the ground. I see no reason why the character on the horse couldn't close the distance, take a shot at the other guy at optimal range and then trot harmlessly away. On foot, that's a different matter... if you miss, you can't get away quickly enough and you're screwed.

And btw, if someone is targeting a character in the duel, worrying about ranges is the most boring thing to do anyway. Focus on the terrain rolls to keep the ally between the target and the archer. Make it a line of sight type of thing -- opposed terrain rolls.

Slymoon wrote:
Using a battlemap, hex map or checkered tablecloth now places the whole concept of distance right before the players in a concrete visual format. Would that not open up the movement issues previously discussed with round-by-round combat?
Possibly... I didn't actually delve into that R-b-R issues too heavily as I never intended to use it.

Slymoon wrote:
Short range for a throwing knife is not the same as short range for a bow.
Does the book actually say that? :shock:

Slymoon wrote:
So the question is, Why do missile weapons give ranges in numbers?
As I'm not Jake, I cannot answer your question. I you have any ideas how to improve this area however, you can join in our discussion on how to manage weapon ranges in The Enigma of Steel: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=433

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Round by Round A vs B question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Higgins wrote:
Slymoon wrote:
Short range for a throwing knife is not the same as short range for a bow.
Does the book actually say that? :shock:


Under range increment for each weapon:
Short Bow:
+1 ATN per 10 yards

Dagger (thrown):
+1 ATN per 3 yards


So, you are correct strictly speaking. The book does not state short range and so on. However, it is clear a 'short range' for a bow is longer than a 'short range' for a dagger.

So, nya nya! :P


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 Post subject: Re: Round by Round A vs B question
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:13 am 
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Slymoon wrote:
So, you are correct strictly speaking. The book does not state short range and so on. However, it is clear a 'short range' for a bow is longer than a 'short range' for a dagger.
Yes, this is how the game handles ranges -- they mean different distances for different weapons... This is even more clear in TFOB, which actually gives five different ranges for each weapon... which is how mostly any other game handles the ranges too.

Say...
Pistol 2/5/10/20/30
Carabine 5/10/30/40/50
Musket 5/10/30/50/70
Rifle 20/50/100/150/200

So, these respective numbers actually mean Point Blank Range/Short Range/Medium Range/Long Range/Extreme Range in yards (I use metres) and have relevant dice pool (not TN) modifiers. I use the TFOB version of ranges myself as it's more clear cut.

And again, if you want to bring the ranges in line with the other parts of the (abstract) system, take a look at this thread I linked in my previous post. I really like those suggestions there and everybody would be happy for additional input. :)

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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