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 Post subject: Feedback, altered rules, thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:03 pm 
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Hello all, I am a big fan of TROS, but there have always been two rules that I wanted to suggest, and I wanted to get some honest feedback. This is ment to take what is great about TROS, and make it better (in my opinion)

1. I do not understand why there is a seperate way to figure out combat. My suggestion: Treat weapon skills as skills. Roll your Agility vs your weapon skill (as a TN). so, if you have a tn of 7, you roll vs 7. Now, before you jump on this, please keep reading...

I suggest this to speed up play and simplify. Now, it is easier to do certian things with certain weapons, so, I would suggest that be figured into the weapon. For instance, the basic skill would be the attack TN, then other manuvers may, or may not be modified. It would be very hard to parry anything with a maul, so under maul, it would say "parry, + 3 TN". An arming sword however would not have any kind of adjustment (because they are ment to be parried with).

The margin of Success would be the base damage: so, if someone attacked with an arming sword, and beat their challender by 2, then that would be their base damage. From there, I would give a CHANCE for more damage, one dice for each point of ST, and one dice for the weapons damage bonus (I do not agree with automatic damage upgrades, or with a weapon having a - damage).

... so, if you have that MOS of 2, and a 5 st and an arming sword (lets say + 4 POTENTIAL damage), then you would have 2 damage already, then roll 9 more dice (5 for st and 4 for the arming sword) agaist a set TN (this TN would not change, and I would set it at 7 for all Melee weapons, maybe lower for guns). This system would allow for a dagger to do as much damage as a large sword, (but larger swords would still have a much better chance to do more damage than a dagger). No weapon would ever take away damage.

2. Charts and damage: Don't get me wrong, I love busting someone with a 5 level wound to the face with a mace ... that's a great feeling but, TO should never, never allow anyone to brush off a sword wound. I suggest that you have a "hitpoint-like" system that your TO is your flat out hit-points (although you still could apply this to each region, and have a "massive damage" from multiple wounds. If you used this system, then a 300 pound bruiser might be able to shrug off a little more damage, but he will not magically be able to shrug off a battle axe with his skin (I do know about the optional rule, but that (in my opinion) slows combat down. I also use this for an example: Think about a giant (lets say TO 12). He may have some natural armor of 1 or 2 for tough skin, but realisticly, being a giant would not let you deflect weapons (not without armor), but it might let you take some more damage (I know it's a gaint... so can't be too serious on the realistic part).

There would still be a couple of tweaks, but I have tried this and it speeds up game-play a lot. I will close with one more example:

Imagine your aging rapier master.... He has studied the rapier his whole life, and although his agility has faded, his skills remain sharp. Even if he only had a 3 agility, his rapier skill of 3 (a true master) is unmatched. That three points of agility represent the limits of his body, but the skill represents the years of practice. He will use the three dice and proably get 3 sucesses.

...and if you do not assign a TN to a weapon, then everyone may not "cherry pick" the rapier.... Feedback appreciated... but i'm sensitive, so by nice =) j/k honesty appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: Feedback, altered rules, thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:18 pm 
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1. You may want to take a look at GaGrin's Alternate Unified Mechanic: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=136
I personally haven't used skills for very much other than intimidation and ridicule, and I rely more on player skill in other cases, so I can't comment too much. However, I do agree that some kind of mechanical unification needs to happen.

2. I don't entirely disagree with toughness doing what it does. A quick solution that I've thought of is to halve the effects of both ST and TO, so that it takes a lot of ST to consistently blow someone's head apart, and it takes a lot of TO to achieve the full "armorskin" effect. I think the real problem is that the damage scale only goes from one through five, and thus, a single point of damage can make the difference between your head exploding and not exploding.


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 Post subject: Re: Feedback, altered rules, thoughts?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:09 pm 
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stonewell wrote:
1. I do not understand why there is a seperate way to figure out combat. My suggestion: Treat weapon skills as skills. Roll your Agility vs your weapon skill (as a TN).


Does this make Agility the most important of the Attributes for a combatant?

stonewell wrote:
I suggest this to speed up play and simplify.


Crikey, TRoS has one of the quickest combat resolution systems I've seen. A typical combat scene takes about twenty minutes to resolve. Coming from a Sim gaming background where combats would usually take 2 hours or so to resolve if all the players were involved I found TRoS to be amazingly quick. As an aside, to understand the driver for the change, how long do your combat scenes take and how frequently are you playing these scenes?

stonewell wrote:
Now, it is easier to do certian things with certain weapons, so, I would suggest that be figured into the weapon. For instance, the basic skill would be the attack TN, then other manuvers may, or may not be modified. It would be very hard to parry anything with a maul, so under maul, it would say "parry, + 3 TN". An arming sword however would not have any kind of adjustment (because they are ment to be parried with).


If you take into account all of the manoeuvres in TFoB as well as those in Core, and you see variation between weapons as a good thing, I suspect your weapon descriptions will become long and complicated.

stonewell wrote:
The margin of Success would be the base damage: so, if someone attacked with an arming sword, and beat their challender by 2, then that would be their base damage. From there, I would give a CHANCE for more damage, one dice for each point of ST, and one dice for the weapons damage bonus (I do not agree with automatic damage upgrades, or with a weapon having a - damage).


In your playtesting of this do the PCs with plate armour ever get wounded in combat?

stonewell wrote:
2. Charts and damage: Don't get me wrong, I love busting someone with a 5 level wound to the face with a mace ... that's a great feeling but, TO should never, never allow anyone to brush off a sword wound.


A better solution IMO for this is to simply subtract TO from ST in the previous calculation:

Damage is equal to:
MoS on attack + [ST - TO (rounding negatives to 0) v TN 7 successes] - AV of target's armour

TO then only counteracts ST, never the original MoS successes. No tracking of TO during combat, hence much faster in play. The player only needs to hear the opponents TO once and then the calculation is clear for the remainder of play, hence much faster in play.

Regards,

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Ian Plumb
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 Post subject: Re: Feedback, altered rules, thoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:35 pm 
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stonewell wrote:
Now, it is easier to do certian things with certain weapons,


Thinking some more on this, could you list a couple of weapons -- say the arming sword and back sword -- as you would present them under this system? That might give a good feel for how this works overall.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Feedback, altered rules, thoughts?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:38 am 
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Hello, and thanks for the feedback. ... to answer one of the questions (about combat taking while), I was referring to the chart flipping. If you put all the charts on a cheat sheet, that makes it run very fast. And TROS does make combat deadly and fast.

Now, onto the backsword VS Arming sword... I don't have my books in front of me, but the basic mechanics would be derived from seeing what the weapon was ment for and go from there. An arming sword is a very good balanced weapon, so cut/thrust/parry would probably all be skill +/0 . A backsword has advantages to defence (and armor for the hand). I would give it a plus on certain defence. I would probably be do manuver cards for each weapon that showed the TN bonuses and minues. For instance, a flail might look like this:

Attack = Skill -/-
Parry = Skill + 2 TN
Trip = Skill -/-
Disarm = Skill -/-

TROS already did a form of this (look at certain light weapons that have a higher TN blocking heavy weapons).

Now, there way a question envolving people in plate never taking damage. ... Well, the Margine of success was the base damage, and the other dice would be bonus.... there are a couple of ways to handle this. 1: Have the defender roll a dice pool to see if the armor blocked it (like bonus dice for the weapon)... I will admit, it adds another layer to combat (which i'm against), but it gives a realitic feel..... what I would really like to accomplish is to allow the "scratch" that a level 1 wound inflicts, but make people fear getting hit with a dagger just the same (no -damage for weapons). I'm open to suggestions.


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 Post subject: Re: Feedback, altered rules, thoughts?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 9:05 am 
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stonewell wrote:
If you put all the charts on a cheat sheet, that makes (TRoS Combat) run very fast. And TROS does make combat deadly and fast.


If TRoS combat runs really quickly what is the design objective of your mods? What are you looking to get out of this change?

stonewell wrote:
Now, onto the backsword VS Arming sword... I don't have my books in front of me, but the basic mechanics would be derived from seeing what the weapon was ment for and go from there. An arming sword is a very good balanced weapon, so cut/thrust/parry would probably all be skill +/0 . A backsword has advantages to defence (and armor for the hand). I would give it a plus on certain defence. I would probably be do manuver cards for each weapon that showed the TN bonuses and minues.


Both the Arming Sword and the Backsword can be used with the Cut and Thrust proficiency so:

Weapons - Swords
ManoeuvreArming SwordBacksword
Beat0
Cut0
Disarm (Offensive)0
Draw Cut0
Evasive Attack0
Half-sword (Offensive)0
Master Strike (Offensive)0
Murder Strike0
Quick Draw (Offensive)0
Stop Short0
Thrust0
Twitching0
Winding and Binding (Offensive)0
Counter0
Disarm (Defensive)0
Expulsion0
Grapple0
Half-sword (defensive)0
Master Strike (Defensive)0
Overrun0
Parry0
Quick Draw (Defensive)0
Rota0
Winding and Binding (Defensive)0


Now these are skills rather than manoeuvers. Firstly, is the Offensive form of the Master Strike a seperate skill to the Defensive form? Skill packets for the warrior types -- I'm guessing you'll have a skill packet for each proficiency. Will these skill packets have all the manoeuvres for the proficiency, the level 0 manoeuvres, some number up to their Skill Priority? How will you handle weapons that can be used with more than one Proficiency, such as the Arming Sword? Seperate manoeuver cards depending on which proficiency is chosen?

To give the system some strategic emphasis you'll have to spend some time making sure that the weapons are different. If the Arming Sword and the Backsword only have different TNs for one manoeuvre then players will observe that weapon choice has little impact. However, as has been observed in another thread when you change the TN by 1 you dramatically alter the odds of success -- let alone changing it by 2 or 3. So how do you give the weapons enough difference without making some weapons or at least some manoeuvres unplayable?

stonewell wrote:
Now, there way a question envolving people in plate never taking damage. ... Well, the Margine of success was the base damage, and the other dice would be bonus.... there are a couple of ways to handle this. 1: Have the defender roll a dice pool to see if the armor blocked it (like bonus dice for the weapon)... I will admit, it adds another layer to combat (which i'm against), but it gives a realitic feel..... what I would really like to accomplish is to allow the "scratch" that a level 1 wound inflicts, but make people fear getting hit with a dagger just the same (no -damage for weapons). I'm open to suggestions.


If you make the armour AV a dice pool you run the risk of the plate armour wearer getting no successes. The players will think this is an odd result. Mainly because it is:

:)
Player: "I throw my dagger!"
Ref: "At the knight wearing articulated plate?"
Player: "Yes!"
Ref: "Where are you aiming?"
Player: "Chest."
Ref: "Chest?"
Player: "Yep"
[The sound of rolling dice]
Referee: "Oh no..."
:)

OK, having poked a little fun at my gaming group and their understanding of medieval combat, let's look at the actuall roll mechanic:

CP is equal to Agility plus SAs.

[Attacker CP v (Offensive Manoeuver Skill TN)] v [Defender CP v (Defensive Manoeuver Skill TN)] produces the Margin of Success.

If the blow has landed then:

Damage = MoS + [(ST + Weapon Damage Rating) v TN 7] - ?

How do we calculate the reduction in damage of the defender's armour and/or shield?

Regards,

_________________
Ian Plumb
Illustrations for Gamers
Lyonpaedia
Griffin Grove Gaming
Kraftworks for Kids School Holiday Program


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 Post subject: Re: Feedback, altered rules, thoughts?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:01 am 
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please see the continuation of gagrin's post. I just altered my ideas and put them there. ... although, I like his method too... not sure which the better would be. Guess thats up to everyone to decide for themselves. =) ...i'm netrual on it though.


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