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 Post subject: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:31 pm 
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Hey guys, I was just wondering on everyone's thoughts about the Point Buy system from the Companion. Ian mentioned there was a thread on the old Forums basicaly saying it sucks but I couldn't find it. Personally I like it and my group uses it, but I was wondering if there are problems with it I'm missing.

One of the reasons I prefer Point buy is because f the flexibility it offers. With Point Buy you can have a Landed Noble who is extremly Skilled, whereas with Priority you have to choose to be either a Landed Noble or Extremly Skilled. This to me is an unenjoyable restraint. It also doesn't make sense to me how a Landed Noble can never have as good Attributes as a Slave can, or any other class for that matter.

So yeah I'm just wanting to discuss the merits of the Point Buy syste, and its flaws too.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:42 pm 
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Well, the most obvious merit I see is that you can make a poor noble or a rich commoner without taking a gift or flaw. I'd prefer the Priority Point Allocation method though, if I saw it as an issue... Just less bookkeeping. :)

Plus this also explains those high Attributes on your viking character. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:05 am 
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Indeed, which is one of the few problems I have with the Point Buy method, I love building my characters around their Flaws, but that often means I'm left with anywhere up to 30 extra points to spend, which then leaves me to choose to learn more proficiencies or to get better at Skills and increase my Abilities. I decided I'd go with abilities for now just because I GM is still in D&D mindframe and that extra ST and TO help (Did I mention where sailing in search of Jotun (Giants)?).

Cheers!

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"It was hard-fought, a desperate affair that could have gone badly; if God had not helped me, the outcome would have been quick and fatal" (115) ~ Beowulf after defeating Grendle's Mother.


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 Post subject: Re: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:19 am 
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Crow Caller wrote:
Hey guys, I was just wondering on everyone's thoughts about the Point Buy system from the Companion. Ian mentioned there was a thread on the old Forums basicaly saying it sucks but I couldn't find it. Personally I like it and my group uses it, but I was wondering if there are problems with it I'm missing.


It's not the mechanics of the Point Buy system that suck but the concept.

When The Companion was released it was perceived to be the new owner's project and indicative of where they wanted to take the game. Sure, TFoB came out soon after Jake sold DP but TFoB was perceived to be Brian's project and largely complete when DP was sold. Therefore it was under minimal influence from the new owners. So the player base were really looking forward to seeing The Companion.

You need to keep in mind that in those days most TRoS players came from an indy games background and mostly had a Narrativist leaning. So when they saw that The Companion had a point buy system for character creation it was simply a "WTF?" moment. You won't find threads discussing the point buy system and how to tweak it and make it better. What you will find are threads that contain, in their analysis of The Companion, "A f%^$ing point buy system! Don't the new owners understand how to play TRoS?!?" hidden in amongst a mountain of other reasons why The Companion was to be avoided at all costs and that The Companion signaled the end of TRoS as we know it.

I myself have no issue with using the point buy system -- for creating NPCs. Using it to create PCs would be missing the point of TRoS. ;)

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:29 am 
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The point of TRoS?

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 Post subject: Re: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:13 am 
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Crow Caller wrote:
The point of TRoS?


That is a tongue-in-cheek reference to the old days on The Forge.

To quote Jake, TRoS is a "dichotomy of extremes". On initial character creation you cannot create Mr Average using the Core rules. Your character must be uber at something and suck at something else. These aren't Gifts or Flaws they're just -- priorities. The player showing the referee what's important to them, in a sense similar to the SAs.

"The point of TRoS", in this sense, is in the decisions. The player is forced to make difficult decisions from the very start of character creation. Where is that F going to go? And the E? It's not about the character as some sort of independent construct; rather, it is about the player. This is what differentiates TRoS from mainstream games.

The same thing doesn't happen with point allocation in character generation. Point allocation changes the nature of character generation from difficult player decisions affecting the character (Narrativist) to one of balanced resource allocation (Simulationist). There is nothing inherently wrong with either approach -- but they are very different approaches from a game design perspective.

And that's what caused many players to spit it when The Companion was released.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:46 pm 
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Hey, thanks for the explanation. I guess I'm somewhat of a Simulationist when it comes to Character Creation then. I honestly can't stand Priority Picks. I like the freedom of being able to play highly skilled Landed Noble, or the Slave with virtually no combat proficiency, and as you said you can't do that, as soon as A goes into Class, you can no longer be a great swordsman, or a skilled rogue. You also can't make an average guy, the Jack-of-All-Trades/Master-of-None type character.

To me these a limitations on the game that don't enhance it in anyway, though I guess I can kind of see how others can see it diferrently/

Cheers & God Bless!!

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"It was hard-fought, a desperate affair that could have gone badly; if God had not helped me, the outcome would have been quick and fatal" (115) ~ Beowulf after defeating Grendle's Mother.


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 Post subject: Re: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 8:47 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
HI like the freedom of being able to play highly skilled Landed Noble, or the Slave with virtually no combat proficiency, and as you said you can't do that, as soon as A goes into Class, you can no longer be a great swordsman, or a skilled rogue...


Ah, but you *can* do those things with the Priority pick system...

Just not with your very first character. But with each character after the first, you can -- to a greater or lesser degree, based on the Insight earned by the SA expenditure of your previous character.

In TRoS, you have to earn this capability -- and in so doing, the player once again reveals to the referee more about what he or she is trying to achieve through the game.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:12 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Ah, but you *can* do those things with the Priority pick system...

Just not with your very first character. But with each character after the first, you can -- to a greater or lesser degree, based on the Insight earned by the SA expenditure of your previous character.
I've always been confused by the insight mechanic. Is this supposed to work within a single chronicle or carry on to the next games that start (basically) from scratch?

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"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Point Buy.
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:29 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Ah, but you *can* do those things with the Priority pick system...

Just not with your very first character. But with each character after the first, you can -- to a greater or lesser degree, based on the Insight earned by the SA expenditure of your previous character.


higgins wrote:
I've always been confused by the insight mechanic. Is this supposed to work within a single chronicle or carry on to the next games that start (basically) from scratch?


Insight is earned by the player, and the player is free to use Insight points for the creation of their next character regardless of where that might take place in the game. It doesn't even have to be the next character.

Regards,

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