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 Post subject: Re: General's Hall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:29 pm 
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GaGrin wrote:
Just a side note really, but none of you seem to know what Paganism is and are using it as an odd catch-all for the religous views of these people before the Xanarians moved in. I'm far from an expert myself - but I would like to see this idea that the Pagans would support anyone claming to be the devil anymore than anyone else addressed.


Not if Uglub claimed to be their devil. But Uglub needn’t do this. If he claims to be some guy misconstrued by another religion (Xanarism) as their devil, it does not follow automatically that pagans are appalled. What’s it to a Hindu if somebody claims to by the Christians’ Lucifer, and that the Christians have got it all wrong and that he (Lucifer) is not at all a bad guy like those misguided fools claim?

HeadWound wrote:
The thing is, Uglub is set up as the Evil Wizard Ruler. Not by any of us, by the main rulebook. We can alter the stereotypes however we see fit, but magic is the whole basis of this guy and his rule.


By all means, yes. But nowhere do I see him introduced as the Evil Wizard Ruler beloved by the majority of his own people. And the latter seems to be taken for granted in many of the posts I have read. I think it much more likely for him to be the Evil Wizard Ruler abhorred by at least a considerable part of his own people.

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 Post subject: Re: General's Hall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:00 pm 
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I can't stay away from the thread :) it has become too interesting to me. I like watching the birth of a world here... At least the details.

Grettir wrote:
By all means, yes. But nowhere do I see him introduced as the Evil Wizard Ruler beloved by the majority of his own people. And the latter seems to be taken for granted in many of the posts I have read. I think it much more likely for him to be the Evil Wizard Ruler abhorred by at least a considerable part of his own people.


I see, I got attached to the idea of the title "Great Betrayer" also describing him to his people. He used them to get power, then betrayed them, and isn't quite as loved anymore, just feared. But, he takes enough care of the nation logistically that the commoners are at least satisfied with life enough not to rebel.

Maybe we are trying to come up with an answer too early. Should Gelure be tackled from the ground up? Describe it's history then maybe the details about Uglub will come more naturally?

Of course, I feel bad for Squeejee. This nation has inspired enough debate that he may feel that he has lost control.


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 Post subject: Re: General's Hall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 9:35 pm 
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HeadWound wrote:
Of course, I feel bad for Squeejee. This nation has inspired enough debate that he may feel that he has lost control.


That’s why I tried, and still try, to limit myself mainly to critizising ideas instead of coming up with my own (as you asked me to). I don’t think it is intruding on anything if I let the main developers of gelure come up with designs for it and do subsequently try to point out weak spots.

HeadWound wrote:
Maybe we are trying to come up with an answer too early. Should Gelure be tackled from the ground up? Describe it's history then maybe the details about Uglub will come more naturally?


I think not. Integrating an Evil Wizard Ruler in a believable way with the Geluroise is hard enough with few facts to account for; the more facts are established beforehand, the harder this becomes. It is probably better to decide upon a reasonable way for Uglub to control his own country and continue from there, creating all other facts around it.

I am just utterly convinced that having the Geluroise be about 1250 Weyr be at least 90% Xanarians is one of the very few preexisting facts that need to be worked with.

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 Post subject: Re: General's Hall
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:28 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
HeadWound wrote:
Of course, I feel bad for Squeejee. This nation has inspired enough debate that he may feel that he has lost control.


That’s why I tried, and still try, to limit myself mainly to critizising ideas instead of coming up with my own (as you asked me to). I don’t think it is intruding on anything if I let the main developers of gelure come up with designs for it and do subsequently try to point out weak spots.



I was looking at it from a different view. I work in a technical field and when we have a problem, it is very frustrating to have someone on the team criticizing the plan, but not coming up with solutions. I didn't even think of it from your view. At this early stage, you are right. I'm going to back off from the thread and allow Squeejee to reassert control over what we have suggested.


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 Post subject: Re: General's Hall
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:06 am 
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Well, I'm honestly at a loss for fully-fledged ideas, but here's a few things we might consider:

What if Uglub wasn't any single man, but a myth created to cover a cult movement that has asserted control over the Geluroise leadership? Maybe there is a single man that represents them, but there is no one "Uglub" out there at all, just the strong, charismatic lad who the nobles think is him.

Oh, and I hate that name too. Maybe it's a acronym for something?

Maybe Uglub found a scapegoat? In the fall of the Xanarian Empire, an anti-xanarian movement begins in Gelure, blaming the Seat and the religion for all their problems. Uglub, like real-world Hitler, rises to power by scapegoating high-ranking members of The Church. He would have forgiven those unfortunate enough to be swayed by thier lies and in several years has the church all but shifted to his own view, that of Xanar and The Dark Betrayer not being so much good/evil as grey/gray.

Maybe this movement was set up beforehand (by Uglub's family?), and became fashionable in the same way that Stahlnish Atheism did? Where the elite all say they believe in [insert], and while the populace believes in {insert}, they don't really care what the guys with huge swords/horses/armor do in thier spare time as long as it doesn't involve untimely death.

That's all I have time for atm, but consider it~

EDIT: Maybe he built up his back account through Blackmail, but then let the cat out of the bag anyway to wreck the King's reputation?

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 Post subject: Re: General's Hall
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:24 am 
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Squeejee wrote:
What if Uglub wasn't any single man, but a myth created to cover a cult movement that has asserted control over the Geluroise leadership? Maybe there is a single man that represents them, but there is no one "Uglub" out there at all, just the strong, charismatic lad who the nobles think is him.

Oh, and I hate that name too. Maybe it's a acronym for something?


Great idea. Maybe Uglub is five wizards acting in unision, and U-G-L-U-B is the initials of their names. And maybe Uglub is some entity out of the ancient pagan religion; thus one could explain the name as “antiquated” pre-Geluroise.

Squeejee wrote:
In the fall of the Xanarian Empire, an anti-xanarian movement begins in Gelure, blaming the Seat and the religion for all their problems. Uglub, like real-world Hitler, rises to power by scapegoating high-ranking members of The Church. He would have forgiven those unfortunate enough to be swayed by thier lies and in several years has the church all but shifted to his own view, that of Xanar and The Dark Betrayer not being so much good/evil as grey/gray.


I guess that this might work, not in the extent proposed, but at least in the basic premise. With Gelure being very close to the centre of the Empire, it was probably under Xanarian control until quite late – and thus it suffered all the ravages of the dissolution of the Empire. Considering all these years of hardship, disillusionment and dissatisfaction with the Empire become very plausible. I doubt that this could leave the Geluroise at odds with the Imperial Faith, especially as the Imperial government differetiates very clearly and sharply between those responsible for war and taxes (Emperor) and those responsible for spiritual and physical well-being (Church), as already laid down by Jake, but even disgruntlement with the government could serve at least as a base to build upon.

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 Post subject: Re: General's Hall
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:40 am 
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Grettir wrote:
Maybe Uglub is five wizards acting in unision, and U-G-L-U-B is the initials of their names. And maybe Uglub is some entity out of the ancient pagan religion; thus one could explain the name as “antiquated” pre-Geluroise.


Maybe of the five individuals, only one is a sorcerer, but he has found a way to "spread around" the magical backlash/aging. Maybe that's the third spell of zero (it really bothers me that there are only two of them, despite the book's "law of three").


On to further story hypotheses!


Maybe, instead of adopting a new religion and/or radically changing the one they already have, a really, really important virtue to the Geluroise is loyalty -- not something the Xanarians would not have been terribly against -- and it also fits the militaristic stereotype of Gelure. Consider that, as the Xanarian Empire waned, the Gelurians starting feeling more loyal to their individual lords/King than to the Emperor, and followed them in casting aside the Xanarian flags. By the campaign's start, it has been so ingrained in the Gelurian psyche to be loyal "to Gelurians first" that, despite still loving the traditional Xanarian beliefs, they can't possibly doubt their leaders if they say "I know this guy's the devil, but we gotta follow him." Also, they follow local lords, not the King. So when the nobility turned to Uglub over the King, the peasantry said "well, okay then."

This would stay true to the "Gelurians are torn" background in the book, and sets up Gelurian characters to have oft-conflicting SAs.

But then, what about the people of the lords who weren't under Uglub? Well, I'd imagine that a number of "examples" shortly after dethroning the royal family (several of which would have escaped just because they were in the right place at the right time) would have put down resistance. Or maybe there was a short but brutal civil war following the power change (during which surprise would have played a major factor).

My idea would be that the majority of the country were kept in the dark as a part of Uglub's plan, and then a campaign of disinformation lead the populace to believe that the King had abdicated the throne and left it to one of his closest knights. The execution of the royal family is a secret known only to a select few, but they were paraded about as criminals to rally public opinion for the new ruler, as his first act as King was annihilating several attempted usurpers. As the populace in question had little idea what the King/Queen/etc looked like, they could have gotten away with this in one bloody day of executions, with only the most elite (who by now were completely won over -- one way or another -- by Uglub) knowing the truth. As a part of their loyalty, they are all willing to take it to the grave with them, while the rest of the world thinks Uglub's rise was peaceful and that the King is living in disgrace somewhere.

And if some of the royals got away (more than likely thanks to being in the right place at the right time) and told the secret, who would believe them anyway?

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