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 Post subject: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:06 pm 
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Hmmm, just wondering why on earth an Elephant has better TO than a dragon, don't get me wrong I think the Elephant's TO is good, but the Dragon's... do they perhaps have some secret AV score I'm not aware of?

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:26 pm 
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Maybe they intend their dragons to be smaller than an elephant? Or the reasoning is that a dragon, being able to fly, should have a rather light frame?

It sure can be explained, but I have always considered TRoS’ way of dealing with huge creatures to be off. TO values of 15+ aren’t exactly pretty when you want to roll them as dice, and they make wounding a large critter, well, strange. For a very long time, nothing whatsoever happens upon hitting a a beast (the TO + AV soaking it up), and then, all of a sudden, the beast is severly wounded or even dead.

I use an alternate rule by which animals have a TO comparable to a very resilient human, but where the damage suffered is divided by a certain factor before this TO (or half of it, as is the case with that other house rule of mne) is subtracted. For a 4 ton elephant, I might use a divisor of 4 before subtracting half its TO of 4-6.

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:54 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
Maybe they intend their dragons to be smaller than an elephant? Or the reasoning is that a dragon, being able to fly, should have a rather light frame?


Hmm, that's reasonable. But I was thinking with armored skin it whould still be pretty high. I might just give them 4 extra to make myself feel better :P

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It sure can be explained, but I have always considered TRoS’ way of dealing with huge creatures to be off. TO values of 15+ aren’t exactly pretty when you want to roll them as dice


Why do you want to roll the TO as dice?

Quote:
and they make wounding a large critter, well, strange. For a very long time, nothing whatsoever happens upon hitting a a beast (the TO + AV soaking it up), and then, all of a sudden, the beast is severly wounded or even dead.


I haven't fought anything TO yet in TRoS so I haven't encountered this. I no I wouldn't fight anything with a TO over 10 with anything less than a Greatsword, and a ST of 6 or 7 tho. Also I'd enforce the Naked Dwarf rule so all those hits that technically didn't make it past TO would still inflict level 1 rules.

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I use an alternate rule by which animals have a TO comparable to a very resilient human, but where the damage suffered is divided by a certain factor before this TO (or half of it, as is the case with that other house rule of mne) is subtracted. For a 4 ton elephant, I might use a divisor of 4 before subtracting half its TO of 4-6.


That'd be something to look into if DW was ever to do a 2nd try at OBaM. Doesn't the Companion have something similar too?

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:19 pm 
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Crow Caller wrote:
Why do you want to roll the TO as dice?

Mainly for some supernatural abilities I have at times had in my games.

Crow Caller wrote:
I no I wouldn't fight anything with a TO over 10 with anything less than a Greatsword, and a ST of 6 or 7 tho. Also I'd enforce the Naked Dwarf rule so all those hits that technically didn't make it past TO would still inflict level 1 rules.

Yeah, sure, whatever, there are many possible solutions as long as you do anything about how the rules treat very large beasts now. What I really don’t like about it is that you won’t get any wound at all at, say MoS 1 to 15, but then suddenly a kill at MoS 20. With my system, many attacks on for instance an elephant result in lvl 1 wounds, which seems – dare I say it? -- realistic to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:01 am 
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Grettir wrote:
Crow Caller wrote:
Why do you want to roll the TO as dice?

Mainly for some supernatural abilities I have at times had in my games.

Crow Caller wrote:
I no I wouldn't fight anything with a TO over 10 with anything less than a Greatsword, and a ST of 6 or 7 tho. Also I'd enforce the Naked Dwarf rule so all those hits that technically didn't make it past TO would still inflict level 1 rules.

Yeah, sure, whatever, there are many possible solutions as long as you do anything about how the rules treat very large beasts now. What I really don’t like about it is that you won’t get any wound at all at, say MoS 1 to 15, but then suddenly a kill at MoS 20. With my system, many attacks on for instance an elephant result in lvl 1 wounds, which seems – dare I say it? -- realistic to me.


I fully agree, and as I said your way would be somethig to strongly consider if another OBaM was to ever be made.

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:21 am 
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Grettir wrote:
With my system, many attacks on for instance an elephant result in lvl 1 wounds, which seems – dare I say it? -- realistic to me.
Doesn't the Naked Dwarf fix give the same result while being simpler?

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:28 am 
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higgins wrote:
Grettir wrote:
With my system, many attacks on for instance an elephant result in lvl 1 wounds, which seems – dare I say it? -- realistic to me.
Doesn't the Naked Dwarf fix give the same result while being simpler?


I have never cared for the Naked Dwarf rule, as it seemed arbitrary to me. And no, it doesn't yield the same results in this instance.

With ND, you get first several results of 0 damage (armour soaking up all), then many results of 1 damage (damage greater than AV but not greater than AV+TO) and then the damage jumps up by one for every single additional success The curve of damage progression with my own system is much smoother.

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:35 am 
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Naked Dwarf has always been a quick fix, and it is fairly realistic. I think what Grettir is after however (and achieved in his own games) is coherent system.

If 1 success = 1 damage and 2 =2, then 3 should equal 3.
Likewise if 1 to 3 successes = 1 damage and 4 to 5 = 2 then 6 to 8 should = 3.

Least that how see it, but my minds not really here today (more fire troubles... *sigh*)

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:53 am 
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Grettir wrote:
TO values of 15+ aren’t exactly pretty when you want to roll them as dice, and they make wounding a large critter, well, strange. For a very long time, nothing whatsoever happens upon hitting a a beast (the TO + AV soaking it up), and then, all of a sudden, the beast is severly wounded or even dead.


Although this is very cinematic. Many many movies kill off their monsters this way.

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:55 am 
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Daeruin wrote:
Although this is very cinematic. Many many movies kill off their monsters this way.

I've never realized this, but yes, you're right. I guess that even with more cinematic play it's in he end a question of just what brand of cinematic reality you are after....

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:47 pm 
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Excuse me? What is this "naked dwarf rule"?

Maybe a rule to limit the goodness of a high Thoughness score? :?:

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:03 pm 
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GaGrin wrote:
"Naked Dwarf" Syndrome (High toughness indistungishable from armour mechanically). Solution: Toughness cannot reduce a weapon strike below a first level wound.

"Dragon Tap" Syndrome (High strength guarentees amputations and instant-death from glancing blows). Solution: The final wound level can never be more than double the margin of success.

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:50 am 
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higgins wrote:
GaGrin wrote:
"Naked Dwarf" Syndrome (High toughness indistungishable from armour mechanically). Solution: Toughness cannot reduce a weapon strike below a first level wound.

"Dragon Tap" Syndrome (High strength guarentees amputations and instant-death from glancing blows). Solution: The final wound level can never be more than double the margin of success.


I really like these two rules, to me they are pretty solid rules, my group already uses "Naked Dwarf" but now I think I'll to implement "Dragon Tap" aswell. Or atleast a variation, we'll see.

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 Post subject: Re: Elephant vs Dragon
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:11 am 
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Thanks guys! they're both great and solid rules! :)

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