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 Post subject: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:54 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Option 6: One Success for the Attacker, One Die for the Buyer if he THRUSTS
Attacker: with no reserve, ALWAYS gets 1 success (no more, no less)
Buyer:
- activation cost 1 and a thrust
- paying 1 die (so, having 1 to roll) has 0% chance of 2 successes
- paying 3 dice (so, having 2 to roll) has 25% chance of 2 successes
etc.
Ian.Plumb wrote:
It seems to me that you wait for your opponent to go all in on the second Exchange, spend one die to buy Initiative, gain one die for a thrust, roll both dice and spend Luck/Drama as required to get the two Successes. That'll be 0, 1, or 2 depending on how well you roll. The net effect is that CP has dropped by one in order to produce an attack that can't be defended -- an attack that will end the fight. That's a good investment of CP and Luck/Drama.
higgins wrote:
I liked Michael's philosophy in this. You either spend a Drama point for the absolute minimum required success OR roll. He wouldn't allow rolling and then overturning the failure with Drama.

Also, spending Drama in combat exchanges is a problematic issue of its own right that would probably need its own thread.
So, here the thread is. :)

I wasn't planning of unveiling my pre-alpha draft prematurely, but this is an important issue that needs to be cleared up in a consensus. I give you an excerpt that I expanded a bit, inspired from the issue brought up by Ian.
Quote:
The PA points can be spent for various purposes, such as automatic success on rolls, resisting pain, introducing scene & plot elements, etc. The secondary use of the PA points is character progression in the terms of improving Attributes, Skills and Proficiencies, gaining new Gifts or buying off Flaws, etc.

The PA point usages will be expanded as EoS develops, but their most basic use is buying an automatic success. This means that instead of rolling, the players opts to buy an absolute minimum required success for one PA point. Opting for a roll instantly bars any PA use for that particular outcome. In other words, PA points cannot be used to overturn failed rolls. The point used in this way can be from any PA and "firing" is not required. As using dice is a fundamental aspect of the combat system, PA points cannot be used for automatic success in combat. PA point can be spent to outright avoid combat, but if you're in it, that's that.
As the automatic purchase of success can abruptly break any tactic and maneuver (think of 1-die attacks, defenses, disarms or counters) I think this is the only reasonable solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:36 pm 
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higgins wrote:
I wasn't planning of unveiling my pre-alpha draft prematurely, but this is an important issue that needs to be cleared up in a consensus. I give you an excerpt that I expanded a bit, inspired from the issue brought up by Ian.


I understand these are initial thoughts -- it is a good idea to bring this up now.

higgins wrote:
The PA points can be spent for various purposes, such as automatic success on rolls, resisting pain, introducing scene & plot elements, etc. The secondary use of the PA points is character progression in the terms of improving Attributes, Skills and Proficiencies, gaining new Gifts or buying off Flaws, etc..


Good stuff. It is certainly a shift from TRoS and the way many people had drifted TRoS (to training-based development etc).

higgins wrote:
The PA point usages will be expanded as EoS develops, but their most basic use is buying an automatic success. This means that instead of rolling, the players opts to buy an absolute minimum required success for one PA point.


Just confirming -- in a contested situation this means that there is no roll and that the spender of PAs is minimally successful by spending one PA point.

higgins wrote:
As using dice is a fundamental aspect of the combat system, PA points cannot be used for automatic success in combat. PA point can be spent to outright avoid combat, but if you're in it, that's that.


Hmmmm -- dice are fundamental to all aspects of task resolution...?

higgins wrote:
As the automatic purchase of success can abruptly break any tactic and maneuver (think of 1-die attacks, defenses, disarms or counters) I think this is the only reasonable solution.


I think this could get a little messy.

Of course I know we all play differently, but meta-game for us is a fundamental part of the tactical choices made during combat. While I give particularly powerful/developed NPCs access to SAs it would be rarer again to give them access to Luck/Drama. So its up to the players to manage their Luck/Drama resource as they see fit.

During combat I think it is very important that a character can't die while it has Luck/Drama available to spend.

Less important but still regularly used is introducing scene elements during combat to trigger Terrain Rolls or block line of sight.

From there, pulling successes on Terrain Rolls is probably the next most frequent use -- to avoid fails or botches, which usually end the fight.

In the EoS context, if PAs are being used for all of this then the player will have access to far more "meta game" resource. We've gone from "up to 5 Luck" to "up to 10 Drama" and now "up to 25 PA". What worked well under "up to 5 Luck" won't work well under "up to 25 PA" because the value has changed. Spending a Luck on a Terrain Roll was a big decision. Spending a PA point on the same Terrain Roll for the same effect is a no-brainer.

What about if, in combat, you had to spend all of the points in a PA to get the effect? Then we'd be back to "up to 7" affected rolls, with each one being a big decision.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:54 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Good stuff. It is certainly a shift from TRoS and the way many people had drifted TRoS (to training-based development etc).
As we tend to handle things very differently most of the time, it's great to see that we're of one mind on this fundamental issue! :)

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Just confirming -- in a contested situation this means that there is no roll and that the spender of PAs is minimally successful by spending one PA point.
Yes, however, if we're dealing with the village wimp beating the village strongman in arm wrestling type of situation, I'd expect the player coming up with a solid reason how this is possible.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
higgins wrote:
As using dice is a fundamental aspect of the combat system, PA points cannot be used for automatic success in combat. PA point can be spent to outright avoid combat, but if you're in it, that's that.
Hmmmm -- dice are fundamental to all aspects of task resolution...?
Yes, but with most rolls, there are no elaborate subsystems with dividing dice, etc. It's either succeed or fail. EoS combat is far from being that straightforward.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
During combat I think it is very important that a character can't die while it has Luck/Drama available to spend.
In effect, character can only die if he enters a conflict with all PAs at 0?

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Less important but still regularly used is introducing scene elements during combat to trigger Terrain Rolls or block line of sight.
As these require no successful rolls in normal circumstances, I'd have no problem with this.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
From there, pulling successes on Terrain Rolls is probably the next most frequent use -- to avoid fails or botches, which usually end the fight.
That is probably the hardest to let go for me as well, however, once the fight is over (character on the ground at 0 CP, his opponent with still having a dangerous amount of CP) I would accept spending a PA point for not being killed. However, PA points shouldn't be able to change the past. If there's a level 5 wound to the head, spending a PA point would allow you to survive if the wound description says "instant death, very messy", but that level 5 wound isn't going anywhere.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
In the EoS context, if PAs are being used for all of this then the player will have access to far more "meta game" resource. We've gone from "up to 5 Luck" to "up to 10 Drama" and now "up to 25 PA". What worked well under "up to 5 Luck" won't work well under "up to 25 PA" because the value has changed. Spending a Luck on a Terrain Roll was a big decision. Spending a PA point on the same Terrain Roll for the same effect is a no-brainer.
It's a good point, but I think things work the other way around. With Luck, you can apply it after you roll, so, while you have less points and they're tougher to come by, it's still a no-brainer to use in a life/death situation. With PA spending OR roll, however, it's a much bigger decision in a sense that perhaps you could roll and risk it, getting the success for "free".

In summary, risk vs costly auto-success is IMO a much tougher decision than "oh crap, I have only one Luck left when I'm done surviving this situation".

Ian.Plumb wrote:
What about if, in combat, you had to spend all of the points in a PA to get the effect? Then we'd be back to "up to 7" affected rolls, with each one being a big decision.
As a house rule or option, perhaps, but I don't see it working in a greater context. The inherently fluctuating values of the PAs would mean that the price for getting the same thing "done" could fluctuate fivefold depending on which PA you decide to scrap.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:18 am 
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Higgins and Ian, you've been discussing the spending of Plot Arc Points and Drama points. I didn't see any mention of Drama points in the playtest document. Are they going to be differentiated in EOS?

In my playtest, Spiritual Attribute points were awarded at the end of the sessions (as per core TROS) and were used for character progression or converted at the beginning of a session for a Drama point.

Drama points were awarded for over-the-top well performed scenes, surviving horrible failures or acheiving unbelievable victories, and for playing their Flaws or Instincts (cf. Burning Wheel) to the hilt and making the story more complicated. They were spent - but only ONE per scene - on introducing scene elements, gaining "10s again" on a roll, nullifying a botched roll, and reducing Wound Levels. It seems the latter is unpopular in EOS thinking.

I liked having the Drama currency separate from the SAs. What might I be missing? Thanks!

EXAMPLE
Spoiler: show
Dressed as gentry, Blaine is trying to walk into a noble’s manor for a ball. Blaine has Instinct: I always carry a knife. Blaine’s player could have announced that Blaine denied his instinct and came completely unarmed. But the player knows that carrying a knife in spite of common sense might complicate the plot. Consequently he will be rewarded with a Drama point if the Instinct complicates matters.

Failing an Etiquette test, Blaine makes the guards suspicious. They search him and find the knife. The storyteller immediately awards Blaine with a Drama point. Now unarmed, Blaine has few options. Blaine’s player spends the Drama point to describe his roguish hero stepping back and grabbing a short blade from another guest who was just walking in. The storyteller hadn’t described other guests entering, but he decides this is an appropriate use of Drama.

Now armed, Blaine might stand a chance against the guards. However, he’s already spent Drama this scene. He’ll have to be extra cautious.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:02 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
I liked having the Drama currency separate from the SAs. What might I be missing?

You've been missing that we did away with Drama as a seperate rating and decided that you could spend PAs in just the way you spent Drama. If you set a 1:1 conversion rate and allow conversion at any time (your requirement of converting at the start of the session being a houserule), there is effectively no more difference between the PA- and the Drama-score.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:20 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
I liked having the Drama currency separate from the SAs. What might I be missing?


Grettir wrote:
You've been missing that we did away with Drama as a separate rating and decided that you could spend PAs in just the way you spent Drama. If you set a 1:1 conversion rate and allow conversion at any time (your requirement of converting at the start of the session being a houserule), there is effectively no more difference between the PA- and the Drama-score.


I like the idea of awarding PAs at the end of the session.

I also like the idea of converting a number of PA points to Drama points at the start of the session. My main issue with spending PA points like Luck/Drama is that each player will have too many points. But if conversion was required at the start of the session then it would come down to the individual style of the player as to how many PA points they wanted and how many Drama points.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:38 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I like the idea of awarding PAs at the end of the session.
I still remember what a tremendous relief it was when I ran my first session of TROS, that I could hand out SAs in the end of the scene rather than in the end of the game session. No clunky brainstorms trying to recall what actually passed in the session and who deserves how many points. Phew! :)

Ian.Plumb wrote:
I also like the idea of converting a number of PA points to Drama points at the start of the session. My main issue with spending PA points like Luck/Drama is that each player will have too many points.
In that case, I'm guessing you see radically different uses for PA points and Drama points?

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:13 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I also like the idea of converting a number of PA points to Drama points at the start of the session. My main issue with spending PA points like Luck/Drama is that each player will have too many points. But if conversion was required at the start of the session then it would come down to the individual style of the player as to how many PA points they wanted and how many Drama points.

I have one concern with this, and that’s that forcing players tob e economical with the spending if their Drama points is likely to encourage saving them for when they are „needed“, instead of using them proactively. And I would very much like to encourage players to use Drama not just as a safety net.

But I do of course see the concern of abundant Drama. So how about not allowing mid-scene conversion. Instead of having to convert at the beginning/end oft he session, players could convert at the beginning/end of every scene.

higgins wrote:
In that case, I'm guessing you see radically different uses for PA points and Drama points?

I would say no, not necessarily. It's just a way to limit the amount of Drama a player can readily access.

higgins wrote:
I still remember what a tremendous relief it was when I ran my first session of TROS, that I could hand out SAs in the end of the scene rather than in the end of the game session.

Same here.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:29 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I also like the idea of converting a number of PA points to Drama points at the start of the session. My main issue with spending PA points like Luck/Drama is that each player will have too many points. But if conversion was required at the start of the session then it would come down to the individual style of the player as to how many PA points they wanted and how many Drama points.


Grettir wrote:
So how about not allowing mid-scene conversion. Instead of having to convert at the beginning/end oft he session, players could convert at the beginning/end of every scene.


Fine by me.

Is there a need to limit how many Drama a player can have? I can envisage a Drama hoarder, who over time builds up thirty or forty Drama points, waiting for the epic final scene in which to unleash them...

higgins wrote:
In that case, I'm guessing you see radically different uses for PA points and Drama points?


Grettir wrote:
I would say no, not necessarily. It's just a way to limit the amount of Drama a player can readily access.


Both right. In TRoS terms, I don't think a player should have, potentially, 25 Drama points at their fingertips. In EoS terms, I see PA points as being spent to develop the character, Drama points being spent to change the scene -- in terms of scene elements or potential outcomes.

higgins wrote:
I still remember what a tremendous relief it was when I ran my first session of TROS, that I could hand out SAs in the end of the scene rather than in the end of the game session.


Grettir wrote:
Same here.


Fine by me. In fact that's my preference, but I also don't see it as heretical to award them at the end of the session.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:59 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Is there a need to limit how many Drama a player can have? I can envisage a Drama hoarder, who over time builds up thirty or forty Drama points, waiting for the epic final scene in which to unleash them...

Can you? Because hoarding would seem unlikely to me. I mean, if weg o with conversion, every time you convert a point of PA you are weakening your character’s effectiveness. If you hoard a lot of Drama, you are tying down your character’s ressources.

But while I see little need for it I am not opposed to a cap to Drama.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:06 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Both right. In TRoS terms, I don't think a player should have, potentially, 25 Drama points at their fingertips. In EoS terms, I see PA points as being spent to develop the character, Drama points being spent to change the scene -- in terms of scene elements or potential outcomes.
That's what I thought, however, I'd still prefer one resource.

a) re-instating Drama conversion would add another technical aspect to the game
b) also, it would introduce "Crap, I forgot to convert!" moments, which would be less than elegant
c) wouldn't it just be simpler to limit the number of PA points that can be spent per scene? Say, 3? That way, it would be easily adjustable by individual groups
d) in addition, keeping one resource would allow us to stress the "currency" aspect over the "character advancement" aspect -- there would be no bridge to cross for getting to the "currency"

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:27 pm 
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As I mentioned earlier, Drama could be awarded after scenes in which the player played well. Whether that means well-acted, well-described, well-thought out, or if they played their Flaws and Instincts to the hilt. It's my magic carrot that helps to encourage players to stay in character during the session.

It never seemed technical, and if someone forgot to convert, they wouldn't freak out too much - they'd just have to play the next scene with their full attention to get more Drama.

And don't forget I mentioned that it was 1 Drama point per scene. They're either fudging their rolls or changing the scene, but never both.

I liked your comments earlier about using Drama in Combat (apart from the uses I already described of getting "10s-again" or nullifying botches). Specifically, using them to force another to make Terrain Rolls. I always described Terrain Rolls are either Obstacles or Threats (e.g. multiple opponents). Obstacles, if failed, causes the player to lose half the CP because they have to "take the extra time" to get around whatever it is (a dip in the terrain, a table, etc). I like the idea of using Drama to throw down an Average to Tricky obstacle in the battlefield. If it were a one-on-one duel, perhaps it'd be better to hold on to Drama for its other usages, but if you're in a team with other players, dropping a Drama on an Obstacle to slow opponents would help everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
And don't forget I mentioned that it was 1 Drama point per scene. They're either fudging their rolls or changing the scene, but never both.

I'd be interested in learning why you have instituted this limitation. Have you had bad experiences with Drama use getting out of hand? Or is it something different?

Seanachai wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, Drama could be awarded after scenes in which the player played well. Whether that means well-acted, well-described, well-thought out, or if they played their Flaws and Instincts to the hilt. It's my magic carrot that helps to encourage players to stay in character during the session.

I'm not too great a fan of this, One of the things I liked about the "experience"-mechanic in TRoS was exactly that it largely removed referee fiat. SAs leave only little discretionary leeway whether or not a point is awarded; with the referee judging whether a player played "well" or "cleverly" or whatever, rewards are for my tastes once again too much in the referee's hands.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:40 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
And don't forget I mentioned that it was 1 Drama point per scene. They're either fudging their rolls or changing the scene, but never both.

I'd be interested in learning why you have instituted this limitation. Have you had bad experiences with Drama use getting out of hand? Or is it something different?


To me limiting it to 1 Drama point per scene means:

1. No worries about hoarders dropping 20 Drama points at once.
2. Draws players attention to the division of story into scenes.
3. Encourages teamwork


Grettir wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, Drama could be awarded after scenes in which the player played well. Whether that means well-acted, well-described, well-thought out, or if they played their Flaws and Instincts to the hilt. It's my magic carrot that helps to encourage players to stay in character during the session.

I'm not too great a fan of this, One of the things I liked about the "experience"-mechanic in TRoS was exactly that it largely removed referee fiat. SAs leave only little discretionary leeway whether or not a point is awarded; with the referee judging whether a player played "well" or "cleverly" or whatever, rewards are for my tastes once again too much in the referee's hands.


Agreed. I have always loved SAs for this reason. It helps make the story THEIR story. As long as they follow their own story, they can participate better in it. If they don't, they have a way of re-shaping it by just changing their SAs.

But Drama isn't an experience mechanic. I believe all players, like myself, appreciate a nod of "Wow, well done" from the referee as well as the other players. What I tend to do is watch the table. If the players are going, "Wow! That was awesome!", the player is going to get a Drama point. He's making the game more dramatic, more interesting, and just plain more fun for everyone. Is that just a referee fiat? I never felt so.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
What I tend to do is watch the table. If the players are going, "Wow! That was awesome!", the player is going to get a Drama point.
If the whole group agrees that a player should receive a reward for creating a "Wow!" moment, why not simply give him a PA point that he can allocate where he chooses? Or is there a particular reason why this wow factor should result in Drama-like benefits, not PA improvements?

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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