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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:30 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Removing its (Flaw) effects from character creation both gave the Flaw more a role-playing, rather than a technical aspect and also made sure that the player would think about how to "benefit" from it, giving him motivation to bring it into play.


Exactly! So, Flaw/Instinct tied to complications on the story and spent through Drama on scene-level perks, and Spiritual Attributes tied to story progress and character advancement.

Your main concerns have been that it's too technical to have Drama points and that players might forget to buy a Drama if they don't have one. I don't think it's too technical (not compared to your weapon range and prep time tables at least :D ), and I just always asked at the beginning of a session during the recap when we look at what SAs were gained during the last session. And if a player forgot, it wouldn't break the game to let them buy the Drama if the SA hadn't fired yet.

What I don't have an answer for is Michael's (?) point that players might hold on to Drama for the technical "dice" perks (nullify a botch) and not add story elements. Adding story elements ("That countess fancies me a little") are good because they involve the player's ideas and encourage player ownership of the story, which is TROS is all about IMO.

So, apart from adopting the current EOS PA system, I guess my options are either:

1. Keep mechanics as is and just encourage players through story and scene design.
2. Narrow Drama point usage for "dice" perks and allow characters to flavor the story through another means.

If a player dropped a Spiritual Attribute (or its equivalent) on a dice perk or story flavor, it would have to be A BIG DEAL since they're giving up something like a fourth or fifth of a potential attribute point!

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:11 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Your main concerns have been that it's too technical to have Drama points and that players might forget to buy a Drama if they don't have one.
More importantly, there would be a bridge to cross to get to the Drama-like use of PAs. Forgetting to convert wouldn't actually break anything, but when it happens, the player would feel like an idiot and I can't see how that would benefit anybody. Removing a game-mechanical aspect one needs to remember would be a bonus, of course.

Seanachai wrote:
If a player dropped a Spiritual Attribute (or its equivalent) on a dice perk or story flavor, it would have to be A BIG DEAL since they're giving up something like a fourth or fifth of a potential attribute point!
I don't get this at all. If you allow SA conversion to Drama, and that only in the beginning of a session, how is spending that Drama LESS of a deal? :?

IMO it's even BIGGER deal as you need to give that SA up before you even know whether there will be things in today's session that you want to use the Drama for.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:08 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
If a player dropped a Spiritual Attribute (or its equivalent) on a dice perk or story flavor, it would have to be A BIG DEAL since they're giving up something like a fourth or fifth of a potential attribute point!
I don't get this at all. If you allow SA conversion to Drama, and that only in the beginning of a session, how is spending that Drama LESS of a deal? :?

IMO it's even BIGGER deal as you need to give that SA up before you even know whether there will be things in today's session that you want to use the Drama for.


Ah, touche, sir. But don't forget, you're getting Drama if you're playing your Flaw and Instinct to the hilt, role playing with panache, or giving a beautiful narrative. Buying a Drama at the beginning of the session wouldn't be something you'd do regularly, I'd hope. It's just an option for those who maybe are about to max out an SA anyway or knows there's a scene they'd like to have an extra Drama for.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:24 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Ah, touche, sir. But don't forget, you're getting Drama if you're playing your Flaw and Instinct to the hilt, role playing with panache, or giving a beautiful narrative. Buying a Drama at the beginning of the session wouldn't be something you'd do regularly, I'd hope.
In essence:
- if you want to advance you character, follow your PAs
- if you want to influence the setting, follow your Flaws & Instincts

I just don't see the need for, nor the purpose of such distinction.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:55 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
What I don't have an answer for is Michael's (?) point that players might hold on to Drama for the technical "dice" perks (nullify a botch) and not add story elements. Adding story elements ("That countess fancies me a little") are good because they involve the player's ideas and encourage player ownership of the story, which is TROS is all about IMO.

Michael's right. :)

But I think it's not that much of a concern. With higgins' current proposition of Attribute ranges 1-5, the PA cost to raise Attributes would be quite hefty; somewhere round 5 times current value, I'd guess. So unless your character's attribute score is abominable, 1 Drama would be equal to only 1/20 to 1/10 attribute point. I just hope that players see (or that we can make them see) the potential power of narrative Drama use; if you can make the countess fancy your guy, that's after all an opening for a none-too-difficult secuction attempt that might lift your character into quite a pivotal position...

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:06 pm 
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higgins wrote:
I just don't see the need for, nor the purpose of such distinction.


That's OK. Edit: I just went back and saw that Ian seems to be on the separate side because like me he's worried about the value of 25 potential points. It also looks like everyone seems to like to give PA/Drama after scenes instead of after sessions.

Now let's go back to what Higgins probably really wanted to discuss - PA/Drama points in combat. According to the document, a player could NOT gain a success on a maneuver roll, but could use it to do the following:

Uses in Combat in PreAlpha
1. Resist pain.
2. Survive a lethal wound - though still suffering from Impairment.
3. Introducing scene elements

Questions:

1. What about automatic successes on a Terrain Roll? In other threads people have mentioned using PAs to get Terrain successes.
2. Does "resist pain" mean reducing the Level of the wound or would you just jot down like 2 fewer pain?
3. What do we mean by scene elements? Earlier I mentioned introducing obstacles that might require a Terrain roll from a foe. So, if a player is fighting in a tavern and wants to throw a table in the way, he might make a terrain roll for that, or if he is really desperate, just spend a PA. Maybe PA-created elements should be more dangerous - like a PA point to have someone watching want to get involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:18 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
1. What about automatic successes on a Terrain Roll? In other threads people have mentioned using PAs to get Terrain successes.
I think it would break the refresh economy if you need 4 successes on a terrain roll both to dodge opponents and precarious surface and you simply cough up one PA and fight the guy you want as if in a flat training field.
Seanachai wrote:
2. Does "resist pain" mean reducing the Level of the wound or would you just jot down like 2 fewer pain?
Wounds can't go away. I see it like... ignoring five points or pain (or the like) to the end of the scene.
Seanachai wrote:
3. What do we mean by scene elements? Earlier I mentioned introducing obstacles that might require a Terrain roll from a foe. So, if a player is fighting in a tavern and wants to throw a table in the way, he might make a terrain roll for that, or if he is really desperate, just spend a PA. Maybe PA-created elements should be more dangerous - like a PA point to have someone watching want to get involved.
Two options:
- he could just say that he presses his opponent towards a table/corner, etc, and handle it via Terrain Roll
- he could spend a PA to say that his opponent finds himself near table/corner, so, the opponent must use Terrain Rolls to avoid the tricky situation (leap on that table, press back, etc)

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:35 am 
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higgins wrote:
I think it would break the refresh economy if you need 4 successes on a terrain roll both to dodge opponents and precarious surface and you simply cough up one PA and fight the guy you want as if in a flat training field.


higgins wrote:
Two options:
- he could just say that he presses his opponent towards a table/corner, etc, and handle it via Terrain Roll
- he could spend a PA to say that his opponent finds himself near table/corner, so, the opponent must use Terrain Rolls to avoid the tricky situation (leap on that table, press back, etc)


Don't these two statements kind of contradict? :D

I agree with you that PA/Drama would break the refresh economy in the first instance. But putting in a believable terrain feature is just plain fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:16 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
Don't these two statements kind of contradict? :D
I don't think so. The first one has an immediate effect to the player's CP while their opponent's CPs still suffer from terrain, the other asks a tactical choice from the other party (instead of terrain roll, he might go all out to end the fight before cornered, for example).

In other words, I wouldn't allow smacking the NPC with a mandatory roll, but rather would create a situation where the NPC would be in trouble when pressed... such as in a fight in the forest, the NPC could discover that his further retreat is blocked by a stream.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:49 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Don't these two statements kind of contradict? :D
I don't think so. The first one has an immediate effect to the player's CP while their opponent's CPs still suffer from terrain, the other asks a tactical choice from the other party (instead of terrain roll, he might go all out to end the fight before cornered, for example).


Right, OK. So PA/Drama can't be used to AVOID a necessary Terrain Roll, but it might be used to create an effect that would otherwise require one.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:21 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Right, OK. So PA/Drama can't be used to AVOID a necessary Terrain Roll, but it might be used to create an effect that would otherwise require one.
That's how I see it. You can create an old well, but you can't make your opponent to fall into that by spending PA points. If you want him to fall in, you still have to press him so that he does.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:29 pm 
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higgins wrote:
That's how I see it. You can create an old well, but you can't make your opponent to fall into that by spending PA points. If you want him to fall in, you still have to press him so that he does.


Awesome. I got to start jotting down these crazy examples we keep coming up with. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:39 am 
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[quote="SeanachaiUses in Combat in PreAlpha
1. Resist pain.
2. Survive a lethal wound - though still suffering from Impairment.
3. Introducing scene elements
[/quote]

So is this the bottom line on using PAs in combat?

I don't care for #2 but it must be important to someone. As is seems like a compromise I will leave it alone. This summation seems okay to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:14 pm 
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There are bound to be more possible uses, such as attempting a shot when rules say the target is out of range... or pinpointing the exact hit location (think Smaug), etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Spending PAs and Combat
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Yep - and in the Terrain (Tactics) Rolls thread we discussing about what kind of elements could be introduced into combat - aka the Well & the Cart debate.

One concern I have about Drama use in combat is how my players will feel about essentially being immortal as long as they have Drama. I totally subscribe to the idea that a PC should only die because it is his time in the narrative to go. And to be honest, that's what it is like even in games like D&D or nWOD, because storytellers are ALWAYS fudging from behind the screen. I've had an nWOD ST say, "Hmm...Well, if you drop all of your Willpower, I'll let you re-roll that thing that just killed you."

The difference is that in D&D and nWOD, the rules don't implicitly say, "You can't die unless you want." How are we going to word this in the EOS document?

I think what I'll end up doing myself, probably, is just outline how Drama affects Wounds (either -1 Level way or the Miraculous Survival way), but be sure to note that a lethal wound, even survived, will affect the story more than in D&D - in other words: Just because you can use Drama to survive this wound doesn't mean it won't have narrative after effects.

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