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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:05 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
So reload times are needed for realism but the weapon damage curves are gamed? 8 ^ )


higgins wrote:
Well, in TROS, muskets had a DR of 8, I think. Add a MoS1 and TO4 characters with no armour can't get anything but level 5 wounds. I think it's unrealistic that every hit lands on the most vital part of the zone or that a character is not able to receive a lighter wound when the bullet merely grazes. Game balance of making MoS more relevant is only a bonus.


So our unarmoured opponent takes a level 5 -- when he is hit. The high TN of the weapon means that as long as our unarmoured opponent dodges his low TN dodge is likely to make that MoS 1 hard to get.

In EoS, if the musket has a 50% chance of hitting the target then, on average, it will take 4 Limelights to kill that one unarmoured opponent. Will it typically take a warrior with a sword 4 Limelights to maim or kill that opponent? That would be 8 - 12 Rounds of melee combat...

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:38 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
So our unarmoured opponent takes a level 5 -- when he is hit. The high TN of the weapon means that (...)
The higher the TN, the easier the attack is to Evade, so, unless we're going completely Matrix, I'd say most firearms would have low TNs. In fact this is how my playtest handles this:

Generic firearm TN5, generic projectile weapon TN6, generic thrown weapon TN7.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
In EoS, if the musket has a 50% chance of hitting the target then, on average, it will take 4 Limelights to kill that one unarmoured opponent. Will it typically take a warrior with a sword 4 Limelights to maim or kill that opponent? That would be 8 - 12 Rounds of melee combat...
I'd rather look it this way:

- in most cases, targets of a ranged weapon will not be actively dodging the weapon as they are probably unaware of being a target
- this means that most of the time, hitting the target relies solely on the shooter who needs to overcome range, cover, bad weather and possible movement of the target
- the average weapon TN is 6
- allowing MoS1 hits to be instantly lethal...
- ...will a melee warrior typically have a 50% chance to maim or kill his opponent with ONE(!) die attack?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:23 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
So our unarmoured opponent takes a level 5 -- when he is hit. The high TN of the weapon means that (...)


higgins wrote:
The higher the TN, the easier the attack is to Evade, so, unless we're going completely Matrix, I'd say most firearms would have low TNs. In fact this is how my playtest handles this:

Generic firearm TN5, generic projectile weapon TN6, generic thrown weapon TN7.


Well that's your choice. Early firearms are innacurate. There are two ways to model that. Massive activation cost. Massive TN. Both reduce the effectiveness of the CP. Going with a low TN but much reducing the damage isn't the way I would go.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
In EoS, if the musket has a 50% chance of hitting the target then, on average, it will take 4 Limelights to kill that one unarmoured opponent. Will it typically take a warrior with a sword 4 Limelights to maim or kill that opponent? That would be 8 - 12 Rounds of melee combat...


higgins wrote:
I'd rather look it this way:

- in most cases, targets of a ranged weapon will not be actively dodging the weapon as they are probably unaware of being a target


If they're in melee combat then they're moving, with lots of potential for Line of Sight to be blocked. I would rule that this represents a dodge.

higgins wrote:
- this means that most of the time, hitting the target relies solely on the shooter who needs to overcome range, cover, bad weather and possible movement of the target.


I wouldn't handle it this way. The sniper shot is a rarity, and so like the dueling archers comes under different rules with more crunch. In other words, it is outside melee and into its own scene.

higgins wrote:
- the average weapon TN is 6


I can see a lot of players carrying gunpowder weapons if the TN is 5. Logically I can see most NPCs doing the same.

higgins wrote:
- allowing MoS1 hits to be instantly lethal...
- ...will a melee warrior typically have a 50% chance to maim or kill his opponent with ONE(!) die attack?


Obviously this comparison doesn't work at all for me. For me, my example is practical where this is theoretical.

But to give a better melee analogy. If an Ogre is carrying a tree trunk as a weapon, I'd say it is instant kill but I'd put the TN at 17. His opponents are always going to dodge, because the consequence of the Ogre getting even MoS 1 is fatal. So maybe the Ogre connects once in a dozen Rounds. What wouldn't work for me is to say that the tree trunk has the same stats as a mace in terms of TN and DR.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:36 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Early firearms are innacurate. There are two ways to model that. Massive activation cost. Massive TN. Both reduce the effectiveness of the CP. Going with a low TN but much reducing the damage isn't the way I would go.
Giving the weapon a high TN or big activation cost would make the weapon inaccurate in ALL ranges. Even a shot made at 6 yards would be ineffective or dodgeable. That doesn't IMO model firearm inaccuracy, so, I'd rather give the weapon shorter effective range. Also, I wouldn't rightly say that a minimum wound level of 3 for an average person is "much reduced damage".

Ian.Plumb wrote:
If they're in melee combat then they're moving, with lots of potential for Line of Sight to be blocked. I would rule that this represents a dodge.
Sure, moving target would give a penalty to the roll... but I wouldn't allow using CP for evading the shot unless the combatant is aware of the shot.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
higgins wrote:
- this means that most of the time, hitting the target relies solely on the shooter who needs to overcome range, cover, bad weather and possible movement of the target.
I wouldn't handle it this way. The sniper shot is a rarity, and so like the dueling archers comes under different rules with more crunch. In other words, it is outside melee and into its own scene.
Sure, archer duel would be different, but what do you mean by a "sniper shot"? What other factors do you see involved in case of "standard" shots into the "melee craze"?

Ian.Plumb wrote:
higgins wrote:
- the average weapon TN is 6
I can see a lot of players carrying gunpowder weapons if the TN is 5. Logically I can see most NPCs doing the same.
Isn't that... kinda what happened once firearms became available? :)

Ian.Plumb wrote:
But to give a better melee analogy. If an Ogre is carrying a tree trunk as a weapon, I'd say it is instant kill but I'd put the TN at 17. His opponents are always going to dodge, because the consequence of the Ogre getting even MoS 1 is fatal. So maybe the Ogre connects once in a dozen Rounds. What wouldn't work for me is to say that the tree trunk has the same stats as a mace in terms of TN and DR.
I agree that MoS1 would be a lethal hit in case of siege engine scale weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:10 am 
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We have covered a lot of ground over the last few weeks. Any chance of a document update with the new changes?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:33 pm 
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pbj44 wrote:
We have covered a lot of ground over the last few weeks. Any chance of a document update with the new changes?
I'm planning on it, but I want Ian's feedback on the LoS stuff first. Well, that, and to 100% clear up the nomenclature of "round tiers".

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Thanks! Sounds good!

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:02 am 
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I got to thinking about the attributes we are currently going with, and just to whittle away some time tried come up with something a little different. I made a chart (sorry if some of it seems a little fuzzy; I was playing with shadows and such):

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It was just a thought...

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:44 am 
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pbj44 wrote:
I got to thinking about the attributes we are currently going with, and just to whittle away some time tried come up with something a little different.


That's awesome! That is really helpful! Very visual, easy to interpret.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:21 am 
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Thanks for the kind words Ian! I got to thinking about attributes and EoS and really wanted titles/descriptions that got me into a more cinematic mood. Its also enjoyable that these attributes would make a clean break from TroS. Only time will tell if anybody else likes them! Anyway it was a fun little project!

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:21 am 
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So, essentially:
Stamina & Strength combined into Brawn;
Acumen & Wits combined into Awareness;
Agility split into Cunning and Daring;
Social & Willpower renamed?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:34 am 
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higgins wrote:
So, essentially:
Stamina & Strength combined into Brawn;
Acumen & Wits combined into Awareness;
Agility split into Cunning and Daring;
Social & Willpower renamed?


Basically, but also a little more than that. Other examples could be plugged into these same attributes. Perhaps a Grizzly Bear would be more aptly described as having a high cunning as opposed to awareness.

Just an exercise in re-imagining attributes in a manner that seemed a little more evocative to me. It might not do anything for you, but I hope you like it. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:08 pm 
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It's interesting and well thought out, definitely narrative, but if we put it to the perspective of what people currently agree on, it creates a number of problems. Brawn becomes the über combat stat both damage delivery and damage resistance wise. Most people barely accepted removing Perception attribute, and Awareness lumps that area even more together. Also, Cunning and Daring seem a bit too skill focused for my tastes.

In summary, it looks cool, it makes sense and it has a kind of Unisystem or 7th Sea vibe to it, but I don't think it would be right for EoS. :|

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:11 pm 
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These are evocative words. If you want, we could include them in the descriptions of the attributes.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:47 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
These are evocative words. If you want, we could include them in the descriptions of the attributes.


Thanks Seanachai for your kindness!

@higgins - thanks for the critique! One thing though, as I get the sense that we are submitting material to you for the EoS project, perhaps you can give me an idea of areas that you would be interested in getting submissions on, that way myself and others that want to contribute will know where to focus their energies. Thanks in advance for your help!

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