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 Post subject: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:34 am 
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Okay, seems like the limelight concept has resurfaced, where each player has a chance to shoot a bolt or arrow despite their prep time, but I'm still not willing to equalise bows/crossbows/muskets with this.

So, how to model prep time? First option would be Terrain Rolls, I guess, but there's an issue with this.

What if the loader is stingy fails his roll? Is it acceptable for his limelight to pass, although he has dice left? IMO no, and this is why I propose...

Reloading Roll :shock: a.k.a. Extended Terrain Roll

What's the difference? Well, Terrain Rolls are mostly connected with melee in the rules outlined so far. So, a constant press of enemies is assumed. If you fail, you're screwed as the enemies press on.

In case of archery, however, that's not always the case. So, why not allow adding new dice if you didn't get the necessary successes? Just like... you guessed it... in case of extended actions.

Player is in limelight with a crossbow. He has a MP of 10 and he needs 4 (just keeping to the standard reloading times for the purposes of this example) successes to load the damn thing. He takes the minimum amount of dice he needs -- four -- and rolls:

*roll* 1, 3, 6, 7. That's two successes. He needs two more. Let's add dice.
*roll* 5, crap
*roll* 0, yea
*roll* 2, crap
*roll* 9, done!

Only two dice left? I use them to get closer to Tim the Bastard to get a better aim at him.

Now imagine the duel of two archers, both rolling one die at time, trying to get the necessary successes to the preparation. To me, it sounds pretty exiting. :)

How to model snap shots and aiming though? I have no idea yet.

Thoughts?

P.S.
Another option is to rename melee terrain rolls to Pressed Terrain Rolls or something similar, indicating that's there only one chance to get it right. With this, we could model archers fumbling their arrows in pressed circumstances as well...

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:03 pm 
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pbj44 wrote:
All I want is for each player at the table to have their character concept equally presented during their limelight moment, I.E., archers shooting, sorcerers casting, fighters fighting, ect.


I think we should have the mechanics allow the archer to have a choice. Let's say this shakes out to be that archers are making Terrain Rolls in order to get loaded and in position in time to do things. When the turns falls on Tom the Crossbow Archer, he knows he can spend his limelight using Terrain and then trying to get a bolt off. If he's not concerned about Duncan because he hears other players say they'll handle it, he looks up and sees there are more baddies soon to be arriving. He decides he wants to be ready so he describes his player earnestly loading his crossbow while his ally falls to the ground. It's a risk but he has to be ready for what's to come.

Benefits of taking this risk: (1) Tom can make his Terrain Roll ahead of time or get a bonus/less of a difficulty when he decides to fire; (2) He gets a "held action" of sorts, meaning he can grab the Limelight when something is described he wants to do.

Making the choice to reload instead of firing each Limelight turn may not seem it, but it is PART of playing their character concept.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Oh, and I'm not sure if this is the thread for it, but I've wanted to suggest a re-name of TERRAIN Rolls. I called mine Tactics because Terrain isn't something you do, there could be things this roll does (like reloads?0 that don't involve the terrain at all, and because when I wrote up the How To for combat, "Tactics & Maneuvers" just looked really cool. So yeah, what do you think about "Tactics Roll".

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:59 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Oh, and I'm not sure if this is the thread for it, but I've wanted to suggest a re-name of TERRAIN Rolls.
I think we should first decide what type of actions we want to resolve with Terrain Roll-like mechanics and then decide how to name them. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:40 pm 
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higgins wrote:
I think we should first decide what type of actions we want to resolve with Terrain Roll-like mechanics and then decide how to name them. :)


Agreed. So... Your thread or mine? JK. Let's do this: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=594

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:47 pm 
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Since there are no fixed times in the limelight mod then I would say that it would be very difficult to construct a method that would be considered both consistant and fair for those in limelight.

Lets look at something basic:

Two characters enter combat against a pair of bad guy mooks. They are overlooking the bad guys below and would have to take a flight of stairs down into the room to physically confront the mooks. One of our heroes is a swordsman, the other a bowman.

1) The bowman is ready to shoot as he initially enters his limelight first, so he leans over the railing, shoots and misses. Okay so far...

2) Some limelight time passes while the swordsman bounds down the flight of steps into the room, and then proceeds to fight both bad guys until something interesting happens. Okay...

3) The limelight now swings to the bowman who has spotted a new bad guy arriving in the room below.

To determine if the bowman should or should not incur a penalty to shoot, or that he has had "adequate" time to reload, we would first have to know precisely how long it took for the events in the swordsman's limelight to transpire.

This could include his movement, any taunting (how do you measure that?? My players would argue that a good taunt would take a minimum of 8-10 seconds!), ect. If the swordsman's player insists that he took "a lot of time" to perform his bit in the limelight, then his buddy the archer could then rightfully argue that he has had "adequate" time to reload, thereby circumventing prep/load times anyway. As long as both players were happy with working in tandem in this fashion the whole point would become moot.

Just thinking out loud,

Phil

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:15 am 
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higgins wrote:
So, how to model prep time? First option would be Terrain Rolls, I guess, but there's an issue with this.

What if the loader is stingy fails his roll? Is it acceptable for his limelight to pass, although he has dice left?


This result means that the archer does not have an opportunity to shoot that specific target in this period of limelight. Remaining dice may be used to shoot another target, or to do other things.

higgins wrote:
In case of archery, however, that's not always the case. So, why not allow adding new dice if you didn't get the necessary successes?


Because every player of an archer character will perform a 1 die Terrain Roll, and then add a single die until they get the required number of Successes. Thus they will always expend the minimum dice to get the result they want. Compare this to the warrior who lives and dies by whether he allocates enough dice to succeeed in the Terrain Roll but not so many that his activity in the next two Exchanges becomes ineffective.

Loading a missile weapon will be a rare event under EoS. I don't think we need a mechanism for modeling it. I have an artillery piece, it takes me a Limelight to load it and another to fire it. I have a lesser missile weapon, I draw and fire it every Limelight.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:21 am 
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pbj44 wrote:
3) The limelight now swings to the bowman who has spotted a new bad guy arriving in the room below.

To determine if the bowman should or should not incur a penalty to shoot, or that he has had "adequate" time to reload, we would first have to know precisely how long it took for the events in the swordsman's limelight to transpire.
I don't advocate using reloading times in all possible cases, but only when the time is pressing. Say, your bowman sees those two mooks and wants to take them both down. He takes a shot and THEN he needs to make the reloading roll to see whether he manages to take ANOTHER shot before the mooks scatter for cover (and that would be a pressed roll, not the extended one). With a bow, it should be doable. With a crossbow or a black powder firearm, not so much.

higgins wrote:
What if the loader is stingy fails his roll? Is it acceptable for his limelight to pass, although he has dice left?
Ian.Plumb wrote:
This result means that the archer does not have an opportunity to shoot that specific target in this period of limelight. Remaining dice may be used to shoot another target, or to do other things.
Would there be a difference between snap shots and taking one's time to aim?

higgins wrote:
In case of archery, however, that's not always the case. So, why not allow adding new dice if you didn't get the necessary successes?
Ian.Plumb wrote:
Because every player of an archer character will perform a 1 die Terrain Roll, and then add a single die until they get the required number of Successes. Thus they will always expend the minimum dice to get the result they want. Compare this to the warrior who lives and dies by whether he allocates enough dice to succeeed in the Terrain Roll but not so many that his activity in the next two Exchanges becomes ineffective.
Actually, I considered this as a feature. If archer is simply wants to prep his weapon, I'm fine with him spending a minimum amount of dice. If however, he is threatened in the melee, or he wants to take a shot at someone who is disappearing from line of sight, etc, THEN he must perform the roll all at once, just like a warrior in the melee.

I also like in my suggested method, that the character with a higher proficiency has more dice, meaning he can better afford reloading actions without sacrificing his whole limelight, meaning he would get more shots off than a rookie (although I admit, that could be modelled differently as well).

higgins wrote:
Loading a missile weapon will be a rare event under EoS. I don't think we need a mechanism for modeling it. I have an artillery piece, it takes me a Limelight to load it and another to fire it. I have a lesser missile weapon, I draw and fire it every Limelight.
So, in case crossbowman and bowman spot each other, both having unprepped weapons, they simply have at it with equal reloading times? Same thing with musket and proper-leather-patch-loaded rifle. Both one turn and then red-red? OR how to you see this?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:53 am 
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higgins wrote:
What if the loader is stingy fails his roll? Is it acceptable for his limelight to pass, although he has dice left?


Ian.Plumb wrote:
This result means that the archer does not have an opportunity to shoot that specific target in this period of limelight. Remaining dice may be used to shoot another target, or to do other things.


higgins wrote:
Would there be a difference between snap shots and taking one's time to aim?


I wouldn't allow an archer to build up bonuses over a number of Limelights by delaying his shot to take extra care in aiming.

If the archer fails a terrain roll to get his shot off before another event takes place I would let him spend a Drama and make a snapshot instead of simply being unable to shoot in time.

higgins wrote:
In case of archery, however, that's not always the case. So, why not allow adding new dice if you didn't get the necessary successes?


Ian.Plumb wrote:
Because every player of an archer character will perform a 1 die Terrain Roll, and then add a single die until they get the required number of Successes. Thus they will always expend the minimum dice to get the result they want. Compare this to the warrior who lives and dies by whether he allocates enough dice to succeeed in the Terrain Roll but not so many that his activity in the next two Exchanges becomes ineffective.


higgins wrote:
Actually, I considered this as a feature. If archer is simply wants to prep his weapon, I'm fine with him spending a minimum amount of dice. If however, he is threatened in the melee, or he wants to take a shot at someone who is disappearing from line of sight, etc, THEN he must perform the roll all at once, just like a warrior in the melee.


I wouldn't ask an archer to make a terrain roll just to prep a weapon. I would ask him to make a terrain roll if he wants to prep and shoot before another event takes place. In this instance, allowing him to spend the minimum dice on the Terrain Roll means he will get maximum dice for the shot.

higgins wrote:
Loading a missile weapon will be a rare event under EoS. I don't think we need a mechanism for modeling it. I have an artillery piece, it takes me a Limelight to load it and another to fire it. I have a lesser missile weapon, I draw and fire it every Limelight.


higgins wrote:
So, in case crossbowman and bowman spot each other, both having unprepped weapons, they simply have at it with equal reloading times? Same thing with musket and proper-leather-patch-loaded rifle. Both one turn and then red-red? OR how to you see this?


This isn't a melee scene. As has been said before, if the scene is about archer's dueling then the player will want all the crunch he can get his hands on. After all, this is his big moment at center stage. So reload times, arrow selection, wind factors, sunlight positioning, etc, etc and heaps of Drama expenditure will all be crucial to the scene.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:44 am 
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higgins wrote:
Would there be a difference between snap shots and taking one's time to aim?
Ian.Plumb wrote:
I wouldn't allow an archer to build up bonuses over a number of Limelights by delaying his shot to take extra care in aiming.
I agree that this would be a bad method of modelling aiming.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
If the archer fails a terrain roll to get his shot off before another event takes place I would let him spend a Drama and make a snapshot instead of simply being unable to shoot in time.
I'd like snapshots to have either TN or dice pool difference compared to the aimed shots, but I'm not yet sure how to elegantly accomplish this.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
This isn't a melee scene.
Is there a particular reason why buying initiative and red/red rules couldn't be used in case of archers who manage to prep their weapons (almost) simultaneously?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:50 am 
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I've taken another look on my Small Scale Tactical Combat mod, and I find it to be rather similar to what I'm proposing here, except instead of flat costs, there are successes that need to be gained. The more I think of it, the more I like the rolling more -- if for nothing else, for the random element that spices things up.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:42 pm 
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NB! I've updated the rules proposed in this post: viewtopic.php?p=9274#p9274

So, some mechanics and examples.

Prep Roll:
- this mechanic is used when you just want to take a regular shot
- roll one die at a time until you get necessary successes
- if after reloading, you still have dice, you may take a "snap" shot with those dice or use them for something else (Evading, Terrain Roll)

Pressed Prep Roll:
- this mechanic is used when you need to get off the shot FAST (intercepting someone's action, shooting twice in a row before targets scatter for cover)
- as you have only one chance to get the necessary successes, it's recommended roll multiple dice
- if you succeed, you can take the shot with the rest of your pool
- if you fail, you can keep prepping your weapon one die at a time, but the moment you wanted to avoid has passed (the guard has managed to drop the porticullis, targets scatter before you can get the second shot off)

Prep difficulties:
semi-automatic firearms: 0 [replacing magazines vary]
Bows & bolt action rifles: 1 [+1 when taking arrows from quiver, not from ground]
Crossbows: 2 [+1 when taking bolts from quiver, not from ground]
Pistol: 3
Musket & Arbalest: 4
Double crossbow: 5
Rifle: 8

NB! Unless we're dealing with an exceptionally long to load weapon (such as a black powder rifle) the prep times DO NOT exceed one limelight even if the player hasn't managed to conjure up necessary successes.

Example:
An archer and a crossbowman see six mooks walking down the road. Both have a MP of 10 and stick two projectiles to the ground, prepping their weapons. With their first shot and prepping, they have all the time in the world, so, no reloading mechanics are used.
They set up an ambush and wait while the mooks come into the short range, which is the optimal range for both their weapons.
Crossbowman uses his full MP of 10, while the archer uses only 8 dice, leaving 2 in reserve.
They loose simultaneously. Crossbowman getting 6 and the archer 4 successes. Their targets, having no defense, are pretty much done. Archer uses his remaining two dice for nocking new arrow (rolls, two dice, gets 1 success, succeeded!).
Now they want to take down as many foes as possible, but the enemies would -- of course -- want to duck for cover. As the forest road offers cover in abundance, the referee says they will all be away from the road by the end of the this round.
As both archers are hard pressed for time, they need to make pressed prep rolls.
As the archer already made a pressed prep roll in advance the round before, he simply looses his arrow, worth 4MP, getting a single success and popping one of the thugs in the leg.
Crossbowman wants to be sure, so, he spends 6 dice on the reloading, getting 3 successes. This one extra success is wasted, but he can take his 4MP shot at one of the thugs. Getting 2 successes, still delivering a bad wound due the armour piercing qualities of his weapon.
Not happy how his last 4MP shot turned out, the archers risks it. If he manages to get a success with a single die, he will have a 5MP shot left. The roll however fails -- the thugs are scattered for the purposes of this archer. He curses and uses one more die. Also a failure. A third. Now a success! He has his bow ready and uses the rest of the 3 dice to reposition himself to get a clear shot. As they scouted the terrain before, the refee sets a terrain roll difficulty of 2. Archer gets only one though.
Next round, the crossbowman also wants to relocate, but the archer already has one relocating success in reserve (and unlike the crossbowman, has his weapon ready).
When the crossbowman wants to reload, he's not pressed anymore as he's not attempting to hold something from happening. Most likely he will just skip one limelight doing that, unless the remaining two mooks gather up some guts to make a charge.

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Last edited by higgins on Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:55 pm 
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I would like to quickly go on record what I would like to see prep-time-wise:

Thrown weapons, bows, slings, minor spells and supernatural powers, etc.: No prep time, fire every time you’re in the limelight.

Crossbos spanned without mechanical devices (i.e. wholly by hand, or with stirrup, or with belt hook), moderate spells and supernatural powers, etc.: One limelight prep time, or make a moderate or difficult Terrain Roll (2 successs? 3 successes?) to fire immediately upon coming into the limelight.

Crossbows spanned with mechanical devices (i.e. goat’s foot and cranequin), blackpowder weapons, powerful spells and supernatural powers, etc.: One limelight prep time.

The deadlyness of weapons like the arbalest needs imo not to be played down in the weapon stats. The player who choses to lug around such a weapon instead of a lighter one willingly trades in precious time in the limelight for more “oomph” in the hit.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:36 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
I would like to quickly go on record what I would like to see prep-time-wise:

Thrown weapons, bows, slings, minor spells and supernatural powers, etc.: No prep time, fire every time you’re in the limelight.

Crossbos spanned without mechanical devices (i.e. wholly by hand, or with stirrup, or with belt hook), moderate spells and supernatural powers, etc.: One limelight prep time, or make a moderate or difficult Terrain Roll (2 successs? 3 successes?) to fire immediately upon coming into the limelight.

Crossbows spanned with mechanical devices (i.e. goat’s foot and cranequin), blackpowder weapons, powerful spells and supernatural powers, etc.: One limelight prep time.
That's what rules proposed in my previous post basically outline, but the terrain roll test difficulty is tied to the time "consumingness" of the reloading mechanism and there's going to be a couple of dice cost even for the bows and such, as I've reserved 0 reload for semi-automatic firearms -- confronted by those, the rate of fire by bows shouldn't be quite the same.

So, the only way to have 0 prep time is when you have the next chamber fed to you, or if you have two barrels or two crossbow arcs that you fire separately -- this 0 prep advantage would also mean that with these weapons, it's considerably easy to divide your MP and make multiple shots in one limelight.

Essentially:
blackpowder firearms/mechanically spanned crossbows: one (badly aimed) snap shot per limelight if you're REALLY skilled; OR more likely you load one LL, aim and fire on the next
majority of crossbows: one snap shot per limelight; OR load+move one LL, aim and fire on the next
bows: one well aimed shot per LL; OR two snap shots per LL, but you can mess up the second shot when stingy with preparation
modern-ish firearms/multi-barrels: one well aimed shot per LL; OR two (or more) snap shots per LL, but you CAN'T mess up the second shot(s) for lack of preparation

Grettir wrote:
The deadlyness of weapons like the arbalest needs imo not to be played down in the weapon stats. The player who choses to lug around such a weapon instead of a lighter one willingly trades in precious time in the limelight for more “oomph” in the hit.
I've designed the DRs in a way that the "oomph" mainly functions as armour piercer. People didn't like how high TO allowed to reduce the wound levels too much, but I think MoS1 insta-kills are the other end of that spectrum. So, I've considered getting hit by MoS1 as relatively "lucky" from the target point of view. With most ranged weapons, you need a MoS3 to deliver a level 5 wound to Stamina 2 character.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Limelight archery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:53 pm 
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higgins wrote:
That's what rules proposed in my previous post basically outline, but the terrain roll test difficulty is tied to the time "consumingness" of the reloading mechanism and there's going to be a couple of dice cost even for the bows and such, as I've reserved 0 reload for semi-automatic firearms -- confronted by those, the rate of fire by bows shouldn't be quite the same.

I want ease of use, and I want no chance of not being ready for bows - none. I really can't see why you think this unrealistic. The demonstration in "Weapons that Made Britain" has demonstrated conclusively that even an archer not trained for speed can easily get off an arrow every 4 seconds. I totally can't follow your realism-concern. :?

And if its about ths semi-automatic stuff: Imo that hasn't any place in EoS design considerations, and I'm not interested to create any mechanic with anything more modern than a front-loading flintlock in mind. I've always found TRoS unsuitable for post-French-Revolution gaming, and trying to accomodate into EoS just creates unnecessary problems - as evidenced in feeling the need to balance the rate of fire of bows with that of semi-automatics.

higgins wrote:
I've designed the DRs in a way that the "oomph" mainly functions as armour piercer. People didn't like how high TO allowed to reduce the wound levels too much, but I think MoS1 insta-kills are the other end of that spectrum.

Sure, sure, whatever works, Makes even sense in view of the ever-heaver crossbows being developed in an arms' race with ever heavier armours. I just wanted to say that I'd rather not see a player who willingly forgoes precious limelight time in favour of delivering a real punch being castrated.

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