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 Post subject: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:09 pm 
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So, as the limelight archery thread has sort of focused on limelights, than on the archery, I'm making a new thread, as I feel that the ranged mechanics should be solid and talked through and through before we move on. I'll repost:

Quote:
Thrown weapons, bows, slings, minor spells and supernatural powers, etc.: No prep time, fire every time you’re in the limelight.

Crossbows spanned without mechanical devices (i.e. wholly by hand, or with stirrup, or with belt hook), moderate spells and supernatural powers, etc.: One limelight prep time, OR make a PREP ROLL to fire immediately upon coming into the limelight.

Crossbows spanned with mechanical devices (i.e. goat’s foot and cranequin), blackpowder weapons, powerful spells and supernatural powers, etc.: One limelight prep time.
Quote:
Prep Roll:
- this mechanic is ONLY used when you need to get off the shot FAST (loading and shooting in the same limelight, shooting twice in a row in the same limelight)
- as you have only one chance to get the necessary successes, it's recommended roll multiple dice
- if you succeed, you can take the shot with the rest of your pool
- if you fail, you can keep prepping your weapon one die at a time (if it needs prepping at all), but you've messed up or missed the opportunity for your shot and must use the rest of your dice for something else

Note: this one-die at a time mechanic is there because if we assume that the reloading will be successful in case of a failed roll, there would be many, "1-die-fail reload + repositioning" feats

PREP difficulties:
Double crossbow/double barreled musket/two pistols/thrown weapons: 0 [+1 when new pistol/thrown weapon is pulled from a belt]
Bows, slings: 1 [+1 when taking arrows from quiver, not from ground]
Crossbows spanned without mechanical devices: 2 [+1 when taking bolts from quiver, not from ground]
Blackpowder firearms: 4 [optional rule for Richard Sharpe fans :mrgreen: ]

Example:
An archer and a crossbowman see six mooks walking down the road. Both have a MP of 10 and stick two projectiles to the ground, prepping their weapons. With their first shot, they have all the time in the world, so, no prepping mechanics are used.
They set up an ambush and wait while the mooks come into the short range, which is the optimal range for both their weapons.
Both use their full MP of 10. They loose simultaneously, crossbowman getting 6 and the archer 5 successes. Their targets, having no defense, are pretty much done.
Now they want to take down as many foes as possible, but the enemies would -- of course -- want to duck for cover. As the forest road offers cover in abundance, the referee says they both will have one limelight to have at them before they will all be away from the road in the bushes.
As the archer has a bow, it's immediately ready to use in the beginning of the limelight. He simply looses his arrow, worth 4MP, getting a single success and popping one of the thugs in the leg.
Crossbowman wants to be sure, so, he spends 6 dice on the reloading, getting 3 successes. This one extra success is wasted, but he can take his 4MP shot at one of the thugs. Getting 2 successes, still delivering a bad wound due the armour piercing qualities of his weapon.
Not happy how his last 4MP shot turned out, the archers risks it. If he manages to get a success with a single die, he will have a 5MP shot left. The roll however fails -- the thugs are scattered for the purposes of this archer. He curses and uses rest of the 5 dice to reposition himself to get a clear shot on his next limelight. As they scouted the terrain before, the refee sets a terrain roll difficulty of 2. That's exactly what the archer gets.
As the crossbowman has no line of sight, he can just wait out a limelight to get reloaded if he wants to stay put, or he can attempt a prep roll to get his weapon loaded and ALSO get his repositioning started this round with the remaining dice.
Quote:
All possible ranges are divided into six bands. Imagine them as circles around the shooter. The bands are:

melee → close → short → medium → long → open → extreme

Melee: From wrestling to pike length, depending on the weapons used. Further divided into the melee weapon ranges, e.g. short, medium, long. At melee range you use CP, even for the occasional pistol shot. In general, ranged weapons are impossible to use at this range.

Close: The range just outside Melee out to a few meters. At this range, you can get to Melee with one quick action, roughly the same time as readying a sword from a scabbard takes. A full evade takes the combatants to this range, just outside Melee. Can aim at any body part (listed in the random table below).

Short: Clearly outside fighting range. Longest practical distance for thrown weapons, but ranged weapons have great effect. Can aim high or low. Roll 2d6 for the body part. Choose the result you like.

Medium: Longest direct fire distance for most arhaic ranged weapons. Javelins can be thrown in an arc, but not at individual targets. Only in open forests can one see this far. Can aim high or low.

Long: Longest direct fire distance for most rifled weapons. Targeting individual people requires rifling. Forests don't offer this long viewing distances. Hit location is chosen at random.

Open: A longbow reaches this far if fired at an arc. Targeting individual people is impossible.

Extreme: Beyond the maximum range of a longbow. Spotting people at this range is not trivial, especially if they aren't moving.

Ranged weapons have an effective range and a maximum range. As ranges are very broad, the maximum range has a cap. Beyond the range cap, you have three options for hittin the target:
1) volley fire;
2) spending a PA point to make a normal shot (range band penalties apply);
3) rifling.
Quote:
The combat environment sets the maximum range.

Anything happening indoors or alleyways is CLOSE or less.
Anything happening in streets or courtyards is SHORT or less.
Anything happening in open forests or clearings is MEDIUM or less.

These are also the effective ranges for vast majority of the ranged weapons in EoS.

The scene setup determines the initial range. If the players ambush someone, they DECIDE what range they will position themselves, if the NPCs have the offensive, the referee decides those things. Alarm given by a sentry can ruin those plans of course and can end up either party further than the plans foresaw. Just as likely, fog or darkness can make such advancement unpredictable and sides may end up closer than intended. Things are handled decision even in open battle, as in "The company will advance to medium range from the enemy unit and open fire."

As the long ranges begins approximately from 100 yards, moving between the ranges during combat mainly concerns itself with first four bands.

MELEE <-> CLOSE = at will
CLOSE <-> SHORT = Difficulty 3 [modified +1 or -1 by terrain]
SHORT <-> MEDIUM = One limelight
MEDIUM <-> LONG & BEYOND = depends on terrain; needs chase sequence, sneaking up or some other "interlude in combat" type of activity

These range band movement rules replace the "rushing for aid" rules outlined in the playtest.
Quote:
TIMING

A character sees some event that he does not want to happen. He has a ranged weapon and a killing shot would be the solution to the problem.

The player needs:
a) access to limelight
b) get a shot off as outlined above (if you have an unloaded musket, sorry)
So, the big questions:

1. Does this seem complicated?
2. If so, what further elements would you like to be abstracted?
3. Are there any mechanics that you don't plain like? Which ones and why?
4. Do you feel that some important area has not been left covered?
5. Does you have a problem that "Aiming" as known in TFOB has been done away with?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:35 pm 
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higgins wrote:
So, as the limelight archery thread has sort of focused on limelights, than on the archery, I'm making a new thread, as I feel that the ranged mechanics should be solid and talked through and through before we move on.


I apologize for stealing your thread. My concerns with limelight did begin with the idea of how archers time their shots.

higgins wrote:
1. Does this seem complicated?
2. If so, what further elements would you like to be abstracted?
3. Are there any mechanics that you don't plain like? Which ones and why?
4. Do you feel that some important area has not been left covered?
5. Does you have a problem that "Aiming" as known in TFOB has been done away with?


So we're talking about:

1. Ranges - What they are and how they limit ranged weapons

I think having range bands is awesome. But I'd want them to be fleshed out so that the same could be used for melee combat scenes (and maybe sorcery?).

The initial range is decided by the type of battlefield (indoor, alleyways, forest clearings) and later by Terrain Rolls. This is awesome. Simple and elegant. I, the storyteller, don't feel as if I'm just making up distances, and the player is able to quickly move around by either making a Terrain Roll or describing the movement. This will feel a lot better than, for example, nWOD where I was always confused how the storyteller decided I could move-attack or just move.

How will effective and maximum performance be distinguished? Is it just -3 dice pool for each range? It seems most weapons have only one range difference between effective and maximum. Is -3 the standard GM's Best Friend to use? - ie. will other standard penalties be at -3? Edit: Would it just be easier to raise the TN by 1 for shots outside effective in the same way that CTN goes up by complexity of spell and ATN goes up for some maneuvers?

2. Reloading - How it is done for the different categories of weapons

So some weapons begin the limelight ready and others don't. Even those that do must be re-loaded if you're trying to shoot more than once in a limelight (since rounds aren't used for refresh anymore).

My confusion here deals with trying to interpret this into the narrative. If I take a shot or two in one limelight, is it somehow assumed that between limelights I have reloaded? Or is it assumed that I am reloading just as I am taking aim? If the latter, why do I have to roll to reload for the second shot?

3. Other factors

I'd like to see a simple, elegant mechanic through Terrain Rolls to work with Line of Sight. Basically, if I'm an archer I would only have to only worry about three things: Range (Am I within it?), Reload (Am I prepped?), and Line of Sight (Can I see my target clearly? Do I have cover).

The first two are being dealt with Terrain Rolls, how about the third one? Is it possible to mix these all into ONE Terrain Roll, or will it have to be three?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:03 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
The initial range is decided by the type of battlefield (indoor, alleyways, forest clearings) and later by Terrain Rolls. This is awesome. Simple and elegant.
I think so, too. However, if we stick to the pre-1800 agenda, I don't see why we would need the Extreme range. Ranges could just end with Open and anything beyond that is simply "beyond open" (a.k.a. out of range). Also, I don't see this Open ranged being used in personal combat, but I see weapons having "Open ranges" in the battle sysyem. Shortbow and longbow are pretty much identical at 20 yards if not to count armour piercing values, but these weapons have a much different effective range in an arc (battlefield use).

Seanachai wrote:
How will effective and maximum performance be distinguished? Is it just -3 dice pool for each range? It seems most weapons have only one range difference between effective and maximum. Is -3 the standard GM's Best Friend to use? - ie. will other standard penalties be at -3? Edit: Would it just be easier to raise the TN by 1 for shots outside effective in the same way that CTN goes up by complexity of spell and ATN goes up for some maneuvers?
Good question. I didn't paste the -3 rule here on purpose, actually. I wanted to mock up the basics first and then see how it would make most sense to deal with ranges. One thing the range will effect is the ability to aim high or low, but the dice mechanical things... both MP penalties and TN raising are options.

Seanachai wrote:
So some weapons begin the limelight ready and others don't. Even those that do must be re-loaded if you're trying to shoot more than once in a limelight (since rounds aren't used for refresh anymore).
To put it simply: some weapons begin limelight fully ready, but if your second shot requires more than pointing your weapon and pulling the trigger, you need a prep roll.

Seanachai wrote:
My confusion here deals with trying to interpret this into the narrative. If I take a shot or two in one limelight, is it somehow assumed that between limelights I have reloaded? Or is it assumed that I am reloading just as I am taking aim? If the latter, why do I have to roll to reload for the second shot?
Point is, between the limelights, you're not pressed to use your MP, so, it's assumed that simple reloads (bow, sling, taking a throwing weapon from your belt) are made with no complications. When you're pressed for your MP though, it matters if you need to take a new shaft from the ground or are you just point and click with your second shot (like double crossbow).

My own concern with reloading is that crossbows will mainly be taking snap shots. If they want to wait and aim properly, their rate of fire drops to the musket/craneqiuin level.

Seanachai wrote:
I'd like to see a simple, elegant mechanic through Terrain Rolls to work with Line of Sight. Basically, if I'm an archer I would only have to only worry about three things: Range (Am I within it?), Reload (Am I prepped?), and Line of Sight (Can I see my target clearly? Do I have cover).
Good point! I think I'm waiting for Ian response on this, as he's the original source of these kind of mechanics.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:31 am 
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higgins wrote:
I didn't paste the -3 rule here on purpose, actually. I wanted to mock up the basics first and then see how it would make most sense to deal with ranges. One thing the range will effect is the ability to aim high or low, but the dice mechanical things... both MP penalties and TN raising are options.


Range seems to be what the task is, which would normally fall under Difficulty. For non-maneuvers that means more successes required. For maneuvers that means a higher TN. Maybe if the target is somehow ablaze or has other things that help your aim, you could get bonus dice.

Have you decided how to handle those with cover?

Options:

    a) Higher TN (Dumb)
    b) Dice penalty (ok - like losing dice on someone's higher defense in nWOD)
    c) Requiring a Terrain Roll to regain Line of Sight. Better cover means higher difficulty (1 for a tree in a forest, 2 for a outcropping of boulders, and 3 for a castle rampart?)

When you get a chance, I'd like to read how you wanted to handle the Arc Shot and Rifling maneuvers.

higgins wrote:
Point is, between the limelights, you're not pressed to use your MP, so, it's assumed that simple reloads (bow, sling, taking a throwing weapon from your belt) are made with no complications. When you're pressed for your MP though, it matters if you need to take a new shaft from the ground or are you just point and click with your second shot (like double crossbow).


OK - so between limelights you aren't pressed.

higgins wrote:
My own concern with reloading is that crossbows will mainly be taking snap shots. If they want to wait and aim properly, their rate of fire drops to the musket/craneqiuin level.


Isn't that what the lower MP represents? Didn't core TROS require some sort of Willpower test if you were trying to load your bow as a horseman was charging down on you. Maybe there could be a Nerves test (Wits + Willpower) if something apart from timing is pressing the archer and making it hard for him to concentrate.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:02 pm 
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I was quite worried about resolving the situations where speed matters the most... like, clearing a building with a crossbow and getting jumped on. However, the solution is simple, really. Regular red/red rules, with the ambusher considered as a the original attacker (+1 success on speed roll).

Seanachai wrote:
When you get a chance, I'd like to read how you wanted to handle the Arc Shot and Rifling maneuvers.
Arc Shot is not a maneuver. If you have a large body of men, you can shoot a volley and use the OPEN range of your weapon (in essence, use the battle rules).

Rifling in my view was that you get to use your proficiency worth of dice to shoot beyond the range cap. In essence, you lose you Aim part, get smacked another range penalty of -3 and if you can still hit, it's all good.

Right now I have two big concerns and it's not about nerves test or anything, but a purely mechanical issue.

1) As crossbows can be reloaded with dice cost... they will mainly be taking snap shots.

2) Yet as musket always takes one limelight to load, you'll not be doing snap shots at all.

Sure, getting ambushed via red/red would squeeze a snap shot out of a musket, but that's the only situation I can think of, too. :|

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:55 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Rifling in my view was that you get to use your proficiency worth of dice to shoot beyond the range cap. In essence, you lose you Aim part, get smacked another range penalty of -3 and if you can still hit, it's all good.


So I like raising the TN for shooting beyond effective range. Or it can be by a loss of dice. With the former a weapon stat could therefore be:

Longbow: Short/Medium (TN6), Long (TN6), >90m (TN7?; Rifling, Arc).

In rifling would it be more clunky (a) to both raise the TN and lose (Wits + Agility); or (b) to lose (Wits + Agility) and an additional 3 dice?

higgins wrote:
Right now I have two big concerns...As crossbows can be reloaded with dice cost... they will mainly be taking snap shots. Yet as musket always takes one limelight to load, you'll not be doing snap shots at all.


So I won't be using muskets, but is this a problem from a simulation standpoint or a dramatic story standpoint? (By the way, I would LOVE to be able to take out two guards in a single limelight with my crossbow.)

It seems one habit we're having right now is that when we don't like how far our rules have gotten us, we throw Drama at it. Could one use of Drama be using your weapon in an otherwise improbable way? You remember when the lakeman in the Hobbit starting talking to his arrow and then let it fly RIGHT into the open spot of Smaug? What if the player has a dramatic moment where he sees the two guards, looks at this weapon and even as he is firing, he's got a handful of power or bullets or whatever and is loading it in.

That might seem over the top, I guess, since we've already agreed that Drama/PA shouldn't be spent on things that REQUIRE Terrain Rolls usually, such as prepping.

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Last edited by Seanachai on Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Edit: Oops, double post.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:28 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Longbow: Short/Medium (TN6), Long (TN6), >90m (TN7?; Rifling, Arc).
Well, there's no way a longbow could have rifling, that's a firearm thing :) This aside, I'd rather keep the weapon stats the same as they are and whatever the mechanic is that is applied by moving one range band further will applied again when moving past the cap either by rifling or spending a PA point.

This arc thing I would not touch upon the individual combat rules at all as this is a battle system thing.

Seanachai wrote:
In rifling would it be more clunky (a) to both raise the TN and lose (Wits + Agility); or (b) to lose (Wits + Agility) and an additional 3 dice?
I think it would be equally clunky. :lol: Perhaps a whole other approach is needed, like halving the dice pool.

Seanachai wrote:
So I won't be using muskets, but is this a problem from a simulation standpoint or a dramatic story standpoint?
For me, it's plausibility standpoint. It just feels weird. Kind of like defining two melee weapons -- one you can ONLY go all out with, and the second which you can go all out with ONLY after a pause.

Seanachai wrote:
(By the way, I would LOVE to be able to take out two guards in a single limelight with my crossbow.)
Double crossbows :ugeek:

Seanachai wrote:
You remember when the lakeman in the Hobbit starting talking to his arrow and then let it fly RIGHT into the open spot of Smaug?
I'd say that's a PA use to determine the exact hit location before the actual shot is made.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:08 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Anything happening indoors or alleyways is CLOSE or less.
Anything happening in streets or courtyards is SHORT or less.
Anything happening in open forests or clearings is MEDIUM or less.

This is really useful. Could I get an idea of what we could say about the other ranges. I am a little stuck at how to describe them in-game without resorting to yards or meters.

Long: Only longbows and other long ranged weapons can shoot this far with a direct line. Any combat action happening …
Open: Even long ranged weapons must be fired in an arc, and it would be impossible to target individuals. Any combat action happening …
Extreme: This distance is beyond the maximum range of a longbow. Spotting someone at this range is not trivial, especially if they aren’t moving. Any combat action happening …

From the Pre-Alpha I see that Extreme is >90meters. It almost seems that we don't need long-open-extreme split into three like that. In fact, none of the ranged weapons you listed on there had a maximum range of Open, so it seems Open is just a point at which you're shooting bows in arc fire.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:27 pm 
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Long, Open & Extreme are all OPEN FIELD stuff.

I've updated the descriptions a bit. Here's the short version:
Medium: Longest direct fire distance for most archaic projectile weapons.
Long: Longest direct fire distance for most rifled weapons.
Open: A longbow reaches this far if fired at an arc.
Extreme: An expression for out of range, but visible.

Seanachai wrote:
It almost seems that we don't need long-open-extreme split into three like that.
I thought so too, but referring to things as "out of range" in a non-ranged weapon context (giving a distance of a castle, for example) sounded weird.

Seanachai wrote:
In fact, none of the ranged weapons you listed on there had a maximum range of Open, so it seems Open is just a point at which you're shooting bows in arc fire.
Different weapons will have different Open ranges in the battle system. Unless they don't, longbows and short bows will have equal range effects in mass battle.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:41 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
It almost seems that we don't need long-open-extreme split into three like that.
I thought so too, but referring to things as "out of range" in a non-ranged weapon context (giving a distance of a castle, for example) sounded weird.
When would we need a mechanical category for these distances in non-ranged contexts? I would imagine if a player wants to know how far the castle is away, you would just say, "It looks to be about eight hundred feet, nestled in hills" and then the story would move to the next location of action. Meanwhile if an archer wants to scout around the castle looking for enemy guards on the ramparts, the issue is just whether he can get up within range or not.

This probably isn't that important of an issue, but I just found myself unable to imagine the difference between Open and Extreme in a common combat scene.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:05 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
When would we need a mechanical category for these distances in non-ranged contexts?
As we have abstract combat environment, all distances are measured via the range bands for the purposes of the game mechanics. Open to suggestions though, if you think this doesn't make sense.

Seanachai wrote:
This probably isn't that important of an issue, but I just found myself unable to imagine the difference between Open and Extreme in a common combat scene.
In common combat scene, you'll rarely even use Long. However, the difference in my view is that in Extreme, you can't spend a PA point to take a shot at the guy. Your arrow just won't fly that far.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:49 pm 
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higgins wrote:
As we have abstract combat environment, all distances are measured via the range bands for the purposes of the game mechanics. Open to suggestions though, if you think this doesn't make sense.
I'm just trying to conceptualize it all. OK, so the practical parameters of range bands are: whether you can see something at the distance, whether you can shoot something at the distance, whether you can target something at the distance, and whether you can move there.

Going from your original descriptions, we could say:

Visibility...
...not an issue for the immediate ranges (Melee -- Short).
...may be difficult in Medium unless the terrain is uncomplicated.
...may be extremely difficult in Long and Open unless the terrain is completely open.
...may be almost impossible in Extreme, especially if the target isn't moving.

Ranged Weapons are...
...not practical in Melee
...effective in Close and Short
...effective in Medium unless they most thrown weapons
...effective in Long if they are longbows.
...possibly effective in Open only if fired in an arc
...useless in Extreme

Calling your shot is...
...possible for even body parts at Close
...limited to either High or Low in Short and Medium
...impossible in Long without spending a Point
...impossible in Open as is targeting an individual
...ridiculous at Extreme unless your friend is a sorcerer

Moving...
...to Close is immediate
...to Short is Difficulty 3 on a Terrain roll assuming favorable ground
...to Medium requires one limelight
...to Long or longer requires a separate scene

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:03 pm 
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Right on! I'd make just a couple of changes:

Ranged Weapons are...
...not practical in Melee
...effective in Close and Short
...usable in Medium unless they're thrown weapons
...usable in Long if they are rifled (long barrel)
...possibly usable in Open only if fired in an arc
...useless in Extreme

Moving...
...to Short is Difficulty 1 for favourable, 2 for general, 3 for challenging

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Ranged Attacks Summary
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:29 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Moving...
...to Short is Difficulty 1 for favourable, 2 for general, 3 for challenging
Yeah, I would just list the Difficulties for each range and then have a note on complications (and examples) +0 for favorable, +1 for unfavorable, +2 for challenging, and a note about whether or not these are cumulative (Moving over slippery terrain (+2 challenging terrain) under a half moon (+1 unfavorable climate).

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