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 Post subject: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:05 am 
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So, it seems there's some confusion about the play sequence in EoS...

I see mainly three tiers:

TIER 1: The top tier. Every player needs to get attention in this tier. Most games call it a "round". Sean things "sequence" would also make sense. I vote for round an it's a common term an I see no point in reinventing the wheel if the principles are the same for most games.

TIER 2: The player's individual time in TIER 1. This is called "limelight" or alternatively "someone's turn".

TIER 3: These are the sub sections of the melee combatant's limelight. In TROS they're known as "exchanges". I proposed to call them "phases" in EoS as I much prefer the simpler term. After every two phases, there's a "refresh".

Thoughts? Comments?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Whatever we end up calling these tiers, the final document will have to be pretty clear since this is obviously different than most (all?) other games out there.

I chose the word 'sequence' because it seemed more cinematic. In Feng Shui, a very, very rules light action movie RPG, combat scenes are broken down into sequences and "shots".

I'm not attached to any name for these tiers at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:46 pm 
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Actually, I just changed my mind. :oops: Sorry.

I like Rounds : Turns : Exchanges

Keeping the term Rounds and using Turns would mean less for a new player to learn because most people who have played any game knows that:

Turn= I get to do something!
Round = Everyone gets to do something!

I actually prefer Exchange for the lowest tier - even though it takes more typing :D (what about exg as an abbreviation for these forums?). The first reason is that it kind of makes sense to me. I throw some dice at you while you're throwing dice at me; we're exchanging dice. The other reason is that I think Jake chose it because it sounds like sword fighting term, and I think we should hold on to some semblance of that. Moreover, the term 'phase' is often used to describe the process of HOW the fight plays out - see the combat write-up in core.

Higgins, do you think it's a good idea to drop the original 'Round' tier?

Old terms = 0 : Limelight : Rounds : Exchanges
Proposed = Sequence/Round : Turns : 0 : Exchanges.

Would you just write up something like "After two exchanges, pools refresh?" What do you think would help players and storytellers get a grasp on this? Aren't there maneuvers that are described as having effects "for the round"? Isn't round used to measure fatigue and when you have to make Blood Loss checks? Would you really word that as "...after two exchanges?"

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:16 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Higgins, do you think it's a good idea to drop the original 'Round' tier?
As that would unify what a "round" is generally understood in RPGs, why not?

Seanachai wrote:
Old terms = 0 : Limelight : Rounds : Exchanges
Proposed = Sequence/Round : Turns : 0 : Exchanges.
Good recap.

On the exchange/phase issue, it was just an idea. Of course it would make more sense to let the native speakers decide.

Seanachai wrote:
Would you just write up something like "After two exchanges, pools refresh?" What do you think would help players and storytellers get a grasp on this? Aren't there maneuvers that are described as having effects "for the round"? Isn't round used to measure fatigue and when you have to make Blood Loss checks? Would you really word that as "...after two exchanges?"
BL rules are going to change and nobody knows how Fatigue rules will work yet... in any case, counting refreshes would be rather similar to counting rounds, wouldn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:12 pm 
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I am willing to go with any name for tiers 1 and 3 as long as tier 2 is named "limelight". This has a non-gamey, but rather cinematic ring to it, and the name alone conveys what we mean it to be.

I'll fel very strongly about this. Basically, I'm willing to trade in my votes on tiers 1 and 3 to anybody who supports me in my choice for tier 2. :P

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:42 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
I am willing to go with any name for tiers 1 and 3 as long as tier 2 is named "limelight". This has a non-gamey, but rather cinematic ring to it, and the name alone conveys what we mean it to be.


Round - Limelight - Exchange?

Isn't it:

Scene - Limelight - Exchange

where

A scene contains one or more periods of Limelight for each major character within the scene. Within each period of Limelight there is an opportunity for the character to take center stage and do whatever it is that the character does best. In the case of melee characters each period of Limelight will be further broken down into Rounds/Exchanges. The same applies to wizards engaged in Arcane Combat.

Limelight passes around the table in a clockwise manner until the scene completes. A player may steal the Limelight, taking their turn out of sequence, if they pay Drama and they did not have the previous Limelight. If more than one player wants to steal the Limelight then the player willing to pay the most Drama steals the Limelight. After the stolen Limelight is resolved, the Limelight returns to the player from whom it was stolen. The Limelight then continues to pass around the table in a clockwise manner, skipping the diva who stole the Limelight.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:21 pm 
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higgins wrote:
BL rules are going to change and nobody knows how Fatigue rules will work yet... in any case, counting refreshes would be rather similar to counting rounds, wouldn't it?


I guess, but it seems unnatural to me somehow to conceptualize a fight this way. When we're discussing the fight, I wouldn't want to say, "Whoa - how many refreshes did that guy last?"

Your "Lifeblood" mechanic - which I'm coming around on - now operates outside the combat timeframe, so I guess that isn't a problem. But Fatigue is still something that will have to be handled. Is it possible it will trigger every limelight then? Let me throw one possible term at you:

Round : Turn (Limelight) : Play : Exchanges.

I like "play" as a term of two exchanges and the footwork involved because that's a sword-fighting term, and this is something that really only applies to melee combatants since archery will now be handled at the limelight level. For example, take a look at these really awesome messer plays - you can almost feel the Combat Pools being spent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWISsk0cy74

Michael wrote:
I am willing to go with any name for tiers 1 and 3 as long as tier 2 is named "limelight". This has a non-gamey, but rather cinematic ring to it, and the name alone conveys what we mean it to be.


Fortunately whatever we decide on, you can always use your own wording. :D For the same reason I'm about to disagree with Ian's use of scene, I don't favor limelight.

1. It's a cinematic term, and while the story will feel cinematic (albeit a gritty, dark, realistic film), there aren't any other "movie" jargon used to flavor the game. While you might be playing a game set in a post-1800 world where limelights existed, they don't exist in a medieval/dark fantasy context, so the term seems out-of-place.
2. Kids my age (20s) probably don't know what limelight means. Even if we do, I keep thinking of fruits. :?

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Limelight passes around the table in a clockwise manner until the scene completes. A player may steal the Limelight, taking their turn out of sequence, if they pay Drama and they did not have the previous Limelight. If more than one player wants to steal the Limelight then the player willing to pay the most Drama steals the Limelight. After the stolen Limelight is resolved, the Limelight returns to the player from whom it was stolen. The Limelight then continues to pass around the table in a clockwise manner, skipping the diva who stole the Limelight.


Hey! You didn't mention this in the other thread. Going around a table, huh? Well, that takes away the storyteller's power of limelight choice, but at least it makes it predictable. Do you really like this more than players announcing their intentions and resolving them in a dramatically appropriate way? If Drama was separate from PAs, I would be OK with it being used to steal the limelight in order to rush and save an ally or do something else before it happens "on screen" and can't be prevented. A dramatically described rescue attempt or interrupting a wizard about to blast away the group would be pretty awesome enough to maybe even earn back that Drama point.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
A scene contains one or more periods of Limelight for each major character within the scene.


Why would some players get more limelights than others? I'm a little hesitant to use the word scene mechanically as that's the term I think we tend to use narrative-ly. So, a scene arguing with the mercenaries leads to a fight scene. A scene is a instance of story set up and choices that might result in earning a SA/PA point. With this definition would a fight scene (bout, combat) be really fight scenes?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:47 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Limelight passes around the table in a clockwise manner until the scene completes. A player may steal the Limelight, taking their turn out of sequence, if they pay Drama and they did not have the previous Limelight. If more than one player wants to steal the Limelight then the player willing to pay the most Drama steals the Limelight. After the stolen Limelight is resolved, the Limelight returns to the player from whom it was stolen. The Limelight then continues to pass around the table in a clockwise manner, skipping the diva who stole the Limelight.


Seanachai wrote:
Hey! You didn't mention this in the other thread. Going around a table, huh? Well, that takes away the storyteller's power of limelight choice, but at least it makes it predictable.


I'm appalled at the idea that the referee could determine who goes next. At most the players get an interrupt, but otherwise the scene plkays out in the default order.

Seanachai wrote:
Do you really like this more than players announcing their intentions and resolving them in a dramatically appropriate way?


I used to play a computer game. Each player had a robot. You configured it with weapons and sensors. Then you programmed into it a series of instructions -- go forward 5 paces, turn head left 90 degrees, wait 5 and shoot anything that enters field of vision, and so on. Then everyone released their robot into the field of play. It was hilarious as you'd watch robots walk past each other while looking in the wrong direction, they'd run into each other and push themselves of course, and then you'd watch your robot walk inexorably into another bots kill zone and there was nothing you could do but hope the other robots next instruction would see it turn away.

Coming from a 2d/3d combat environment I am prepared to accept a certain amount of imprecision and resulting silliness that occurs when using an abstracted combat environment and of course the necessary evil of the Terrain Roll. But the idea that the players all announce their intentions and then the referee weaves it into a scene based on the referee's concept of what is dramatic -- to be candid, I don't have that much faith in the referee. TRoS removes a lot of traditional authority from the referee and places it in the hands of the players. I think EoS should continue that trend.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
A scene contains one or more periods of Limelight for each major character within the scene.


Seanachai wrote:
Why would some players get more limelights than others?


Some players will get one more period of Limelight than the others simply because the scene will end before their next Limelight.

Seanachai wrote:
I'm a little hesitant to use the word scene mechanically as that's the term I think we tend to use narrative-ly. So, a scene arguing with the mercenaries leads to a fight scene. A scene is a instance of story set up and choices that might result in earning a SA/PA point. With this definition would a fight scene (bout, combat) be really fight scenes?


I didn't intend to use the term "scene" as having some sort of mechanical weight. I simply suggest that a combat scene will have a number of periods of Limelight wherein characters perform actions relevant to their character concept. Some of those Limelights will be further broken down into Rounds/Exchanges.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:39 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Round - Limelight - Exchange?

Isn't it:

Scene - Limelight - Exchange
For me, "scene" is TIER 0. If we call TIER 1 the "scene", how do we track the spell durations and/or fatigue? In scenes? IMO it would make more sense to track them in rounds.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:04 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I'm appalled at the idea that the referee could determine who goes next.


Wow, I've been completely misunderstanding you for a long time. My apologies! My whole concern has been how arbitrary it was for the storyteller to describe who limelights first (that's right, it's a verb now). A pre-determinant order (perhaps by order of who has the most Drama or PAs) with your simple rules for stealing the spotlight is something I'd like to playtest.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:02 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Round - Limelight - Exchange?

Isn't it:

Scene - Limelight - Exchange


higgins wrote:
For me, "scene" is TIER 0. If we call TIER 1 the "scene", how do we track the spell durations and/or fatigue? In scenes? IMO it would make more sense to track them in rounds.


Oh I so hope you're not intending to track time by how many Rounds transpire...

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:07 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
A pre-determinant order (perhaps by order of who has the most Drama or PAs) with your simple rules for stealing the spotlight is something I'd like to playtest.


I don't think "who goes first" can be contextless (as in, who has the most PAs). The referee handles scene-framing and what is transpiring will largely determine who goes first -- and that's the way it should be. This is the easiest way to ensure that the referee can build a scene around a particular character, ensuring that their PAs are firing.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:49 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
The referee handles scene-framing and what is transpiring will largely determine who goes first -- and that's the way it should be.
Ian.Plumb wrote:
I'm appalled at the idea that the referee could determine who goes next.
Aren't these two exactly the same? :)

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Oh I so hope you're not intending to track time by how many Rounds transpire...
As long as the reloading times make sense and one can fight multiple refreshes per limelight in the melee, the method how the rounds/limelights are set up is basically irrelevant for me personally, so, I'm simply asking it for the sake of getting this aspect clarified.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:41 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
The referee handles scene-framing and what is transpiring will largely determine who goes first -- and that's the way it should be.


Ian.Plumb wrote:
I'm appalled at the idea that the referee could determine who goes next.


higgins wrote:
Aren't these two exactly the same? :)


Who goes first is different to who goes next.

A scene will usually open with something interesting happening. As an example the crew are sitting quietly around a table in a tavern. A tavern patron spills their drink over one of the PC's and demands that they buy him a refill. The idea that the first person to act in this instance should be determined mechanistically, rather than by context, doesn't work for me.

Conversely, the idea that we're twelve Limelights into a mass combat and it should be the referee picking who goes next each time is anathema to me, regardless of how dramatic the referee might be finding the unfolding combat scene. A mechanism should be in play to determine the order in which Limelight is passed around the group and the referee should be at arms length from this process.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:29 am 
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Good point.

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