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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:28 pm 
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Sounds good. Especially the fact that it's optional. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:07 pm 
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:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:28 pm 
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So, does everyone agree with:

TIER 0 - TIER 1 - TIER 2 - TIER 3
Scene - Round - Limelight - Exchange (with Refreshes)

:?:

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:01 pm 
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higgins wrote:
So, does everyone agree with:

TIER 0 - TIER 1 - TIER 2 - TIER 3
Scene - Round - Limelight - Exchange (with Refreshes)

:?:


I think we should go with SOMETHING so that we don't have any confusion on these threads, but I still like...

Scene - Round - Turn - (Play) - Exchange

But let's go with yours for now for the sake of clarity. We could always note in the final document "Limelights, which is the player's turn,..." :D

Re: Fatigue-counting. Keeping track of how many refreshes you've had seems a little crunchy to me. What if the referee could just (optionally) require players to make a Stamina + Strength check at the beginning of a round?

    Those not moving/fighting: Difficulty 0
    Unarmored: Difficulty 1
    Lightly armored: Difficulty 2
    Heavily armored: Difficulty 3

On the second round the ST might say -1 penalty, then -2, etc, or not depending on the situation. Failure means -1CP for the rest of the scene. If you rest for a limelight, you get your CP back.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Scene - Round - Turn - (Play) - Exchange
Play?

Seanachai wrote:
But let's go with yours for now for the sake of clarity. We could always note in the final document "Limelights, which is the player's turn,..." :D
That's the only good thing about not being a native English speaker -- I can use whatever the terms I want in my translated rules. :lol: The downside is not having all the relevant terms for historical items.

Seanachai wrote:
Re: Fatigue-counting. Keeping track of how many refreshes you've had seems a little crunchy to me. What if the referee could just (optionally) require players to make a Stamina + Strength check at the beginning of a round?
Round as... TIER #what? :lol:

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:40 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Scene - Round - Turn - (Play) - Exchange
Play?


Yep. That's how we divide it in HEMA (the club that Jake Norwood started after ARMA).
Seanachai wrote:
Let me throw one possible term at you:
Round : Turn (Limelight) : Play : Exchanges.

I like "play" as a term of two exchanges and the footwork involved because that's a sword-fighting term, and this is something that really only applies to melee combatants since archery will now be handled at the limelight level. For example, take a look at these really awesome messer plays - you can almost feel the Combat Pools being spent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWISsk0cy74


higgins' wrote:
That's the only good thing about not being a native English speaker -- I can use whatever the terms I want in my translated rules.


Hmm, maybe we should just use Estonian! That would make it sound pretty cool (and Tolkien-ish) for us, at least. Of course, if it's anything like Finnish, some of those terms could get pretty long, huh?

higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Re: Fatigue-counting...What if the referee could just (optionally) require players to make a Stamina + Strength check at the beginning of a round?
Round as... TIER #what? :lol:


Haha, Tier 2. That way everyone does it at the same time. Tier 3 would just take too long.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Scene - Round - Turn - (Play) - Exchange
Play?
Yep. That's how we divide it in HEMA (the club that Jake Norwood started after ARMA).
So, a play would be like round in TROS?

Seanachai wrote:
Hmm, maybe we should just use Estonian! That would make it sound pretty cool (and Tolkien-ish) for us, at least. Of course, if it's anything like Finnish, some of those terms could get pretty long, huh?
Long? Hell no. All attributes are 5 letter or less :P

higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Re: Fatigue-counting...What if the referee could just (optionally) require players to make a Stamina + Strength check at the beginning of a round?
Round as... TIER #what? :lol:
Haha, Tier 2. That way everyone does it at the same time. Tier 3 would just take too long.[/quote]But in case of single player combat (where the fatigue is most interesting to follow) it has a single limelight throughout the combat, doesn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:39 pm 
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higgins wrote:
So, a play would be like round in TROS?

Yeah. A Play is two exchanges and the footwork (Terrain Roll) involved. When we study plays in HEMA there is someone who initially has the VOR ("before"; Red, the initiating) and someone who has the NACH ("after"; White, the reacting). If you haven't watched that short YouTube video, you ought to! :D

I know we're not going to use these terms (VOR/NACH) in EOS, but I'll probably give my players a token with a red side that says VOR and a white side that says NACH to keep track.

higgins wrote:
But in case of single player combat (where the fatigue is most interesting to follow) it has a single limelight throughout the combat, doesn't it?

If we go with the counting method, then we'll have to keep track of refreshes. That doesn't make sense in the limelight-centric combat we're wanting in EOS.

The question is whether the word Round would ever be used in a single player combat scene that only has one "limelight". I think it still would be. If Jon (PC) is battling two guards on top of a crumbling bridge, the storyteller might fight it useful to be able to use the word Round (Tier 2). Where does he call it? Easy! In the same place he would normally call it the end of a turn. Basically it's after something interesting happens and whenever you have to re-describe the status of the scene.

Round 1: Jon begins battle and is told the bridge is crumbling soon. This is going to require Terrain Rolls throughout the fight. He goes through five plays and drops one of the guards.
Round 2: The storyteller says, "OK, so that means there's only one guard left and he's at Close range, circling you. You know you have very little time! You see parts of the bridge fall off into the moat even as the second guard is coming at you. Make a Fatigue check!" Jon goes three plays and it ends with a grapple starting, an interesting turn of events.
Round 3: ST says, "OK, so you're now wrestling over the edge of the bridge. Make a Fatigue check! You know if you have any chance of getting off the bridge before it falls, you'll have to break free of this guy this round."

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:51 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
If we go with the counting method, then we'll have to keep track of refreshes. That doesn't make sense in the limelight-centric combat we're wanting in EOS.
Agree, but if the PC fight with his arch enemy for 13 Plays, and "something interesting" has not happened, he's not tiring. Only a pause would be "something interesting" but it's also the time where one would rest, not tire. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:41 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
If we go with the counting method, then we'll have to keep track of refreshes. That doesn't make sense in the limelight-centric combat we're wanting in EOS.
Agree, but if the PC fight with his arch enemy for 13 Plays, and "something interesting" has not happened, he's not tiring. Only a pause would be "something interesting" but it's also the time where one would rest, not tire. :)


If he fights for 13 refreshes and NOTHING interesting has happened....Dude, that's like 26+ rolls of dice. I would want to MAKE something happen. I'm sure there would be a pause or dialogue in there somewhere, and as they stare at each other panting, they would make a Fatigue check.

But your point is that calling a Round by something interesting triggers might mean not a lot of Fatigue checks. I think that's up to the ST's pacing. Fatigue checks to me was always more about strategy and dramatic tension than a simulation of real life.

Strategy: Unarmored players dance around armored players, making lots of Full Evades in hopes of tiring them out.
Tension: Two armored players are battling it out with lots of SA/PA dice and a large dice pool. They know they can beat this guy, but 13 plays have gone by and they STILL haven't landed a big hit. After a close call, the storyteller calls for a Fatigue test. Oh no! :o

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:36 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
If he fights for 13 refreshes and NOTHING interesting has happened....Dude, that's like 26+ rolls of dice. I would want to MAKE something happen. I'm sure there would be a pause or dialogue in there somewhere, and as they stare at each other panting, they would make a Fatigue check.
I guess that's my point -- they fatigue because they talk, not talk because they are fatigued. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:42 am 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
If he fights for 13 refreshes and NOTHING interesting has happened....Dude, that's like 26+ rolls of dice. I would want to MAKE something happen. I'm sure there would be a pause or dialogue in there somewhere, and as they stare at each other panting, they would make a Fatigue check.
I guess that's my point -- they fatigue because they talk, not talk because they are fatigued. :)


Are you OK with handing it over to the storyteller completely? There will probably be fights where Fatigue is just simply something I'm not going to want to deal with. If we're using Fatigue as a simulationist thing, then yeah we're going to have to nail down how often someone is losing CP.

If not, then I'm happy with saying the storyteller calls for Fatigue every Round. If there's only one PC involved, the storyteller calls for it when it makes sense to - ie. something interesting happens, the scene has to be re-described, there's a pause, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:40 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
Are you OK with handing it over to the storyteller completely? There will probably be fights where Fatigue is just simply something I'm not going to want to deal with. If we're using Fatigue as a simulationist thing, then yeah we're going to have to nail down how often someone is losing CP.


For me fatigue is a layer of accounting and detail that I'm not interested in. I don't think it adds to the scene but I can see it slowing things down a little. I'd rather the players thought about metagame resource spends to improve the combat scene rather than accumulating fatigue loss.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:01 am 
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I find myself agreeing more and more with Ian lately, but I also agree there should be some kind of rule those who need it.

Seanachai wrote:
Are you OK with handing it over to the storyteller completely? There will probably be fights where Fatigue is just simply something I'm not going to want to deal with.
Absolutely. I find that Fatigue rules are important only in a single combat such as judicial duel, etc, where nobody else can get involved. So, I would be perfectly happy with the GM calling for a CP drop every now and then (3-4 refreshes, like the normal limelights would be) and the guy in no armor can ignore every other call.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Rounds, Limelights, Refreshes...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:53 am 
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higgins wrote:
I find myself agreeing more and more with Ian lately...


Now you're just freakin' me out...

:lol:

Regards,

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