It is currently Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:18 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 9:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:43 pm
Posts: 2112
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Ian.Plumb wrote:
I personally don't agree with the spend descriptions in the document.


Grettir wrote:
But I don't see anything in it we haven't already discussed in the past. And I don't remember you speaking out against any of those points then. So I'm somewhat puzzled.


What is there to be puzzled about though?

Ian.Plumb wrote:
...I'm happy for this to progress as is and without constraints such as conversion or scene limits or session limits.


We've covered the issue of the implications for the game if there is far more "Luck/Drama" resource available to the player in EoS. We've also covered the issue of removing the "Change one die to a Success" option in EoS. I feel like the subject is done.

Regards,

_________________
Ian Plumb
Illustrations for Gamers
Lyonpaedia
Griffin Grove Gaming
Kraftworks for Kids School Holiday Program


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:00 am
Posts: 511
Location: Cary, North Carolina
Sigh...in the interest of harmony I will be quiet about this subject. As an aside, for my own game I will just let my crew know that PAs cannot be used as life insurance in combat.

I won't mention drama again.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:39 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orange County, California
It's possible I upset the apple cart with Drama when I came back into the EOS discussion after some time away.

I think my view was well summarized by PJ.

pj wrote:
Ultimately, as a meta-resource, drama points usage is heavily affected by the social contract of the group in question, thus the method in which they are applied or awarded is highly situational.

    Spiritual Attributes/Plot Arcs: Gained for playing in your scenes of your story. Grant you bonus dice in scenes of your story. Spent to improve your character mechanically.
    Drama Points: Gained for playing well in THE story (all scenes). Spent to grant you perks - mechanical and narrative - in all scenes.

I think this INDIVIDUAL versus GROUP story distinction is important. Where would you put a bonus PA dot as a reward for a well-played scene that had nothing to do with a player's PAs?

I think it worked as two separate things in TROS/Companion. I am hearing that having them separate is more complicated. I'll list Higgins's concerns.

higgins wrote:
Plus sides for not having Drama:
    1: no "bridge to cross" for introducing story elements
    2: no need to "give up" PA points before knowing what you want to use them for
    3: no conversion
    4: no extra mechanic
    5: never forgetting to convert
    6: never needed to explain the difference


Concern 1 depends on your preference as a storyteller as to how much you want your players introducing story elements. Having a cache of 25 with a 3-point limit will feel different than having a cache of 2-3 with a no limit or a 1-point limit.

Concerns 2, 3, and 5 all deal with the rule I proposed about being able to buy a Drama point with SA before a session. If this is really what makes Drama so unlovable, then it could certainly just be a house rule. We liked it. It was used only occasionally, and only because players didn't want to start Drama dry. Players knew that playing the game well was the best way to get Drama, not converting.

Concerns 4 and 6 are difficult ones to address since they could be used as arguments against any rule. In my experience Drama never confused players or slowed play.

In summary, it seems that Higgins is more concerned about the option of buying a Drama point with a SA/PA point. He seems to think that rewarding players during scenes in which they play well (good RP, teamwork, narrative flair, etc) is valuable, but doesn't think they these rewards need to be placed in a separate mechanic.

If you all are happy with that you have a consensus with PA alone, I will be very interested in how you do plan on using PA Points in general. It seems that it will require more house rules to define PA usage and make everyone happy with it than it would to have a house rule defining Drama (for Higgins, no conversion; for PJ, no combat) since storytellers have more control of Drama as a reward than SA/PAs.

_________________
"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Seanachai wrote:
In summary, it seems that Higgins is more concerned about the option of buying a Drama point with a SA/PA point. He seems to think that rewarding players during scenes in which they play well (good RP, teamwork, narrative flair, etc) is valuable, but doesn't think they these rewards need to be placed in a separate mechanic.
I think that's quite accurately put. If the player receives a reward, I can't truly see why he shouldn't benefit from it the way he likes best.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Seanachai wrote:
Concern 1 depends on your preference as a storyteller as to how much you want your players introducing story elements. Having a cache of 25 with a 3-point limit will feel different than having a cache of 2-3 with a no limit or a 1-point limit.
IMO if conversion is allowed:
1) a PA cache of 25 with a 1-point limit = PAs and a Drama cache of 2-3 with an 1-point limit
2) a PA cache of 25 with a 3-point limit = PAs and a Drama cache of 2-3 with no limit

I would understand Drama if the game purpose was:
- if you want to advance you character, follow your PAs
- if you want to influence the setting, follow your Flaws & Instincts
...but I don't agree with such purpose.

As an aside, do you cap max Drama by 3?

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:00 am
Posts: 511
Location: Cary, North Carolina
First, I hope I did not come off as shrill earlier in the thread. I guess what I would like to communicate is that I have always viewed SAs as an entitlement and Drama as a reward. Both have traditionally served different purposes.

Okay, fine.

Make one of the five PA buckets a fixed one and call it Drama. It will then max out at five and remove the danger of abuse. It will have the same rarity that Luck had in the old system but will not strictly speaking be a seperate mechanic, merely a subtype of PA, as Luck was a specific type of SA.

Just thinking out loud...

_________________
Image


Last edited by pbj44 on Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
pbj44 wrote:
I have always viewed SAs as an entitlement and Drama as a reward. Both have traditionally served different purposes.
So, you do not allow conversion?

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 10:00 am
Posts: 511
Location: Cary, North Carolina
higgins wrote:
pbj44 wrote:
I have always viewed SAs as an entitlement and Drama as a reward. Both have traditionally served different purposes.
So, you do not allow conversion?


My method is to allow my crew with majority vote to award Drama points to each other. Thus far this has not been abused.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:39 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orange County, California
higgins wrote:
I would understand Drama if the game purpose was:
- if you want to advance you character, follow your PAs
- if you want to influence the setting, follow your Flaws & Instincts
...but I don't agree with such purpose.


In my original explanation I also mentioned that from the player's side Drama was a reward for a good role-playing (whether or not it was a PA scene), narrative flair, as well as some other things. Basically, SA for keeping the story going, and Drama for keeping the story interesting for everyone. I also sometimes used them as carrots ("OK, guys, settle down and enough with the dirty jokes. 1 Drama point if you guys stay in character for the rest of the scene.")

higgins wrote:
As an aside, do you cap max Drama by 3?
I never needed to, actually. Players didn't get Drama every session, and when they did it was only 1 or 2 (if it was a really "on" night). I wouldn't want to cap it because then that limits my ability to use it! I WANT them to be constantly looking for ways to play the game the best they can.

pbj44 wrote:
First, I hope I did not come off as shrill earlier in the thread. I guess what I would like to communicate is that I have always viewed SAs as an entitlement and Drama as a reward.


That's exactly what I wanted to say. The nWOD model (4-5 XP entitlement with possible 1-2 extra reward) doesn't work in EOS because an extra 2 SA is the difference between a maxed out PA and giving points to an uninvolved PA.

pbj44 wrote:
Make one of the five PA buckets a fixed one and call it Drama. It will then max out at five and remove the danger of abuse. It will have the same rarity that Luck had in the old system but will not strictly speaking be a separate mechanic, merely a subtype of PA, as Luck was a specific type of SA.

Interesting, but whether or not you put it on a different place on the character sheet doesn't make much of a difference. Higgins hasn't mentioned yet how he would handle this situation:

Jon plays exceptionally well. He plays his Instinct to the extreme, putting him and his allies in a complicated (and interesting!) situation even though he didn't have to and at the same time he role-plays really well, making everyone at the table laugh, cry, and say, "Oh my God, that was awesome!".

The ST decides to reward him with a PA point. Jon has three Plot Arcs that aren't already maxed out. They deal with rescuing his brother from prison, winning Gwyneth's heart through gallantry, and stopping the plot of the Six-Fingered Man. However, none of these PAs are involved in what Jon just did.

_________________
"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Seanachai wrote:
Higgins hasn't mentioned yet how he would handle this situation:

Jon plays exceptionally well. He plays his Instinct to the extreme, putting him and his allies in a complicated (and interesting!) situation even though he didn't have to and at the same time he role-plays really well, making everyone at the table laugh, cry, and say, "Oh my God, that was awesome!".

The ST decides to reward him with a PA point. Jon has three Plot Arcs that aren't already maxed out. They deal with rescuing his brother from prison, winning Gwyneth's heart through gallantry, and stopping the plot of the Six-Fingered Man. However, none of these PAs are involved in what Jon just did.
I have. Repeatedly. I'd allow the player to assign that point to any of those PAs.

If the whole group thinks the player has done an awesome job, why not give him a choice where to put it? Why tell him "Oh my God, that was awesome! ... What? You want to use this METAGAME award for stopping the plot of the Six-Fingered Man? Why? How? Gasp! :shock: No! You must use your award for introduce a scene elements instead!"

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 12:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:39 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orange County, California
higgins wrote:
If the whole group thinks the player has done an awesome job, why not give him a choice where to put it? Why tell him "Oh my God, that was awesome! ... What? You want to use this METAGAME award for stopping the plot of the Six-Fingered Man? Why? How? Gasp! :shock: No! You must use your award for introduce a scene elements instead!"


Metagame can be metagame; I see your point. My outstanding concerns for merging Drama/PA are:

1. Do I want SA benefits for Drama effort?

OK, so Jon has played his instinct well or described a scene with memorable flair. Does that mean he should get semi-permanent dice bonuses to all scenes involving a PA?

2. Do I want Drama benefits for SA effort?

(This is a difficult one to consider as we haven't completely outlined ALL uses of PA/Drama points.) OK, so Jon now has another dot in Plot Arc: Win Gwyneth's heart through gallantry (see, Higgins, I did read it!). This same point can be used to:

    1. Improve his character permanently (Attributes, Skills, Proficiencies, Vagaries, Gifts & Flaws).
    2. Add a story element (the countess actually fancies me, there's a cart down there)
    3. Shoot beyond my maximum range
    4. Miraculously Survive a lethal wound
    5. Gain the absolute minimum required successes OUTSIDE of combat
    Etc, etc...

Will the player see these uses as equal value?

_________________
"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:39 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orange County, California
It's interesting to see where everyone was regarding Drama 2 years ago...

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=426

:roll:

_________________
"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:36 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:43 pm
Posts: 2112
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Seanachai wrote:
1. Do I want SA benefits for Drama effort?

OK, so Jon has played his instinct well or described a scene with memorable flair. Does that mean he should get semi-permanent dice bonuses to all scenes involving a PA?

2. Do I want Drama benefits for SA effort?

(This is a difficult one to consider as we haven't completely outlined ALL uses of PA/Drama points.) OK, so Jon now has another dot in Plot Arc: Win Gwyneth's heart through gallantry (see, Higgins, I did read it!). This same point can be used to:

    1. Improve his character permanently (Attributes, Skills, Proficiencies, Vagaries, Gifts & Flaws).
    2. Add a story element (the countess actually fancies me, there's a cart down there)
    3. Shoot beyond my maximum range
    4. Miraculously Survive a lethal wound
    5. Gain the absolute minimum required successes OUTSIDE of combat
    Etc, etc...

Will the player see these uses as equal value?


The player shouldn't expect to see these as equal value. The fact is there's no way to do any of them without a metagame resource spend. So the choice to make the spend, or not, lies with the player at all times. The unwritten rule here is that the referee can't write scenes where the only positive way out for the players is to make metagame resource spends. Rather, they are a bonus for the player to be used if and when they choose.

What we really don't want is the concept that miraculously surviving a mortal blow requires 3 points of metagame resource, avoiding a non-lethal amputation requires 2 points of metagame resource, while writing a love interest into the story only requires 1 metagame resource point (0 if he/she is Soc 3 or less).

Regards,

_________________
Ian Plumb
Illustrations for Gamers
Lyonpaedia
Griffin Grove Gaming
Kraftworks for Kids School Holiday Program


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Ian.Plumb wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Will the player see these uses as equal value?
The player shouldn't expect to see these as equal value. The fact is there's no way to do any of them without a metagame resource spend. So the choice to make the spend, or not, lies with the player at all times.
I absolutely agree with Ian. It all comes down to what's more important to the player -- keeping the point -- or spending it for some effect. If some random mook has escaped beyond range, most people would not bother spending the point, but what if it was the Six-Fingered Man making his escape? The value of taking that shot has immediately changed. :)

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: EoS: Drama or no Drama?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 4:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:39 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orange County, California
OK - What about this question?

Seanachai wrote:
1. Do I want SA benefits for Drama effort?

OK, so Jon has played his instinct well or described a scene with memorable flair. Does that mean he should get semi-permanent dice bonuses to all scenes involving a PA?


Do I as a REFEREE see these as equal value? I want to give a reward, but I don't want that reward to be as long-lasting as SA/PA.

_________________
"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group              Designed by QuakeZone