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 Post subject: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 2:31 pm 
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After discussing LoS related stuff with Ian, I came up with this:
Quote:
As EoS has an abstract combat environment, cover and line of sight as abstract concepts as well. If some cover is in play, it is assumed that it's somewhat in the way and the archer has to make a terrain roll to position himself right and to time the shot correctly. Essentially, you must divide your MP between accuracy and timing. Here are the difficulties for timing the shot.

No cover = no roll needed
Scarce cover = 1 successes (open forest, a couple of persons nearby)
Moderate cover = 2 successes (moderate forest, half a dozen persons nearby)
Heavy cover = 3 successes (dense forest, crowd)
Blocked = shot will hit the obstacle

Now, here's the kicker. The roll for creating LoS is made AFTER the shot. That's right. You first make the shot and THEN you see whether it hits the mark, or the crowd the target is covered by.
There would be no opposed Terrain Roll on the defender's part.
Quote:
Defending against missile attacks either works by blocking or evading. The evade TN defender uses depends on his surroundings. With plenty of cover and or throwing oneself down behind an obstacle, you get a TN 4. With barely adequate cover, you get TN 7. With no cover at all, you must use TN 9.
Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 20, 2011 10:37 pm 
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Sounds reasonable. I also like the bit on rolling for LOS after the shot.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:33 am 
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pbj44 wrote:
I also like the bit on rolling for LOS after the shot.
Yeah! That's the real kicker IMO -- you can't ever know for sure that the LoS holds until you've actually taken the shot. And the more effort you spend on timing, the more your accuracy suffers. The archer actually has a decision to make, rather than pouring the whole MP into his shot every single time.

Edit: I've quickly skimmed over the Ian's 15-sec mod thread and while I must have been confused of his intentions at the time, the mechanic proposed here seems to fit Ian's vision like a glove, with two improvements:
1) timing roll has distinct difficulty guidelines (which have nothing to do with the passed rounds)
2) placing the timing roll AFTER the shot means that the player won't feel castrated by the failed timing roll that denies the USE of the rest of his pool -- all the dice got used, but the cover ruined the shot (as opposed to seeing the cover blocking the LoS and not taking the shot at all). The difference is subtle, but IMO important

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:08 am 
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higgins wrote:
placing the timing roll AFTER the shot means that the player won't feel castrated by the failed timing roll that denies the USE of the rest of his pool -- all the dice got used, but the cover ruined the shot (as opposed to seeing the cover blocking the LoS and not taking the shot at all). The difference is subtle, but IMO important


This is a good improvement and should make running an archer more interesting. I like it.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Having given it some more thought, I came up with this:
Quote:
Range:
Further = 1 success per range band further from the effective range
Closer = activation cost of 2 per range band closer from the effective range (to be melee compatible)

Movement:
Target moving fast = 1 success (running, on a cart, on a horse)
Target moving unpredictably = 2 successes (in combat)
Attacker on unstable platform = 1 success (on a cart, on a horse)

Cover:
Scarce cover = 1 success (open forest, half a dozen persons or more)
Heavy cover = 2 successes (dense forest, crowd)
Blocked = projectile will hit the obstacle

Lighting:
Dim lighting = 1 success
Almost dark = 2 successes
Pitch darkness = the ranged weapon is essentially useless

Weather (ignored in the close range):
Poor weather = 1 success (wind, heavy rain)
Bad weather = 2 successes (brisk wind, downpour)
Impossible weather = the ranged weapon is essentially useless (storm/gale)

So, if your target is moving fast (1) in an almost dark (2) dense forest (2) while you're affected by brisk wind (2), then yes, it's a heck of a tough shot to time correctly (difficulty 7 total). The difficulties in the same category are not cumulative -- use the worst or deem the shot impossible if two "difficulty 2" complications are in the play (dense forest AND a crowd). Attacker's unstable platform is the exception in this and always stacks with other movement complications.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:21 pm 
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Interesting! So, does the victim make his Evade roll before or after the Archer's terrain roll? It seems faster to say BEFORE.

Archer has MP10.
There is scarce cover available.
Archer sets aside 4 dice for Terrain.
Archer rolls 6 to hit Victim.
Victim Evades with TN7.
Victim rolls more successes so Archer doesn't bother with Terrain Roll.

I'm looking forward to a full and illuminating example. :D

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:38 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Having given it some more thought, I came up with this:

I think it would be easier to organize this as below. Also, I think that Activation Costs (ie. pool penalties) should be listed separately. I think Unstable Platform sounds more like "what you bring to the task" instead of the nature of the task, which is hitting something from a distance. This means dice penalty instead of +1 difficulty. I assume +1 difficulty equates to -2 or -3 dice statistically. If so, we could change the Closer activation cost to a difficulty gain of +1 as well.

Quote:
ARCHER TERRAIN ROLL DIFFICULTY

Easy (1): Target has Scarce Cover (open forest, a couple of persons nearby)
Average (2): Target has Moderate Cover (moderate forest...)
Challenging (3): Target has Heavy cover (dense forest, crowd)

Add +1 Difficulty
...for each range band further or closer than effective range.
...if target is moving fast (running, cart, horse)
...if lighting or weather are poor (wind, heavy rain).

Add +2 Difficulty
...if the target is moving unpredictably (in combat)
...if lighting or weather are very bad (almost dark, brisk wind, downpour).


Also, I think we should create an "Impossible" Difficulty (Easy 1, Average 2, Challenging 3, Difficult 4, Amazing 5, Impossible !). This difficulty cannot be attempted unless the player spends Drama point(s). If they do, it becomes an Amazing difficulty - or perhaps lower if they spend more than 1 Drama. This would be for Smaug shots and in Impossible weather/lighting.

Should we call this a Terrain Roll since it is rolled AFTER a shot?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:50 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Victim rolls more successes so Archer doesn't bother with Terrain Roll.
That's my only gripe, really. I don't want to create a situation where one is denied the use of the rest of his pool due a failed roll.

Seanachai wrote:
I'm looking forward to a full and illuminating example. :D
I'm waiting some feedback on general principles first.

Quote:
ARCHER TERRAIN ROLL DIFFICULTY

Easy (1): Target has Scarce Cover (open forest, a couple of persons nearby)
Average (2): Target has Moderate Cover (moderate forest...)
Challenging (3): Target has Heavy cover (dense forest, crowd)

Add +1 Difficulty
...for each range band further or closer than effective range.
...if target is moving fast (running, cart, horse)
...if lighting or weather are poor (wind, heavy rain).

Add +2 Difficulty
...if the target is moving unpredictably (in combat)
...if lighting or weather are very bad (almost dark, brisk wind, downpour).
YES!!! But I got rid of the difficulty 3 cover by design. If one has a character behind heavy cover, the target most likely running anyway (+1 difficulty). That makes a default difficulty of 4 for crowd shots. I figured 3 was bad enough.

Seanachai wrote:
Also, I think that Activation Costs (ie. pool penalties) should be listed separately.
Yes. Only the range band closer had this though.

Seanachai wrote:
I think Unstable Platform sounds more like "what you bring to the task" instead of the nature of the task, which is hitting something from a distance. This means dice penalty instead of +1 difficulty.
I wanted to make it more uniform. To have it be penalties or difficulty, but not both.

Seanachai wrote:
I assume +1 difficulty equates to -2 or -3 dice statistically. If so, we could change the Closer activation cost to a difficulty gain of +1 as well.
This gets clunky in the melee. Let's say one has a pistol and wants to take a shot, so, he needs to make two rolls go get the shot off at someone who is yard or two away?

Seanachai wrote:
Also, I think we should create an "Impossible" Difficulty (Easy 1, Average 2, Challenging 3, Difficult 4, Amazing 5, Impossible !). This difficulty cannot be attempted unless the player spends Drama point(s). If they do, it becomes an Amazing difficulty - or perhaps lower if they spend more than 1 Drama.
If any one of the following is in effect, I'd say the shot is impossible:
- out of range
- pitch darkness
- hell of a weather

Spend a PA point to make that impossibility a Difficulty 3.

If target is blocked by cover, you're screwed unless your weapon can penetrate it or the target decides to take a peek (which defaults him to Evade TN 4).

Seanachai wrote:
This would be for Smaug shots and in Impossible weather/lighting.
I'd say getting the exact wound location was more important in case of Smaug hit than the range, movement, etc. So, Drama goes on picking the wound location.

Seanachai wrote:
Should we call this a Terrain Roll since it is rolled AFTER a shot?
I guess not. I just wanted people to get how I mean this right of the bat. Timing Roll would be good.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:11 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Yes. Only the range band closer had this though.
To have it be penalties or difficulty, but not both.

So the penalty for point blanks should be listed with the weapon or rules about use of ranged weapons and not in the section about archer LOS rolls.

higgins wrote:
This gets clunky in the melee. Let's say one has a pistol and wants to take a shot, so, he needs to make two rolls go get the shot off at someone who is yard or two away?

I see. Hmm, this is confusing since we've said in other threads that Terrain Rolls are only for melee.

higgins wrote:
If target is blocked by cover, you're screwed unless your weapon can penetrate it or the target decides to take a peek (which defaults him to Evade TN 4).


Well if we call this "being screwed" as Impossible, players could still spend Drama. Perhaps the bad guy makes a mistake and stands up for a moment or there's a small crack in the board or something else cinematic. Drama/PA is all about introducing elements. And there's always the storyteller's ability to counter-bid.

higgins wrote:
I'd say getting the exact wound location was more important in case of Smaug hit than the range, movement...
OK, so that would be listed in the section about rolling dice for location. Spending a point means forgoing that part. Hmm, does that seem like a lot of rolling now? 1. Take shot roll, 2. LOS roll, 3. location roll.

higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Should we call this a Terrain Roll since it is rolled AFTER a shot?
I guess not. I just wanted people to get how I mean this right of the bat. Timing Roll would be good.


We've said that Terrain rolls are used in melee limelights not archer limelights. Terrain rolls are made first, not after. So yeah, it sounds different. We could call it Line of Sight or Aim Roll, but those don't sound good since they intuitively sound like they should be done first.

By the way, I'm OK with there being two rolls in limelights because I think it is symmetrical.

Melee Limelights: Terrain Roll + Combat Roll
Ranged Limelights: Missile Roll + LOS Roll
Sorcery Limelights: Sorcery Roll + Strain Roll

...but we're not ready for sorcery discussion yet.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:32 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
This gets clunky in the melee. Let's say one has a pistol and wants to take a shot, so, he needs to make two rolls go get the shot off at someone who is yard or two away?
I see. Hmm, this is confusing since we've said in other threads that Terrain Rolls are only for melee.
Yes, my original rules used penalties activation costs, so, it worked in melee too. I need to think on this a bit.

Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
If target is blocked by cover, you're screwed unless your weapon can penetrate it or the target decides to take a peek (which defaults him to Evade TN 4).
Well if we call this "being screwed" as Impossible, players could still spend Drama. Perhaps the bad guy makes a mistake and stands up for a moment or there's a small crack in the board or something else cinematic.
I thought of this, but if one is behind some castle rampart, the following situation came into my mind.

PC: "I'll spend a PA point to get a shot at the bastard."
NPC: "I'm not f***ing peeking!!!" :lol:

Seanachai wrote:
Hmm, does that seem like a lot of rolling now? 1. Take shot roll, 2. LOS roll, 3. zone roll.
Total of four rolls to the far shots, yes. d6 roll as well (unless that mechanic changes somehow).

Seanachai wrote:
By the way, I'm OK with there being two rolls in limelights because I think it is symmetrical.

Melee Limelights: Terrain Roll + Combat Roll
Ranged Limelights: Missile Roll + LOS Roll
Sorcery Limelights: Sorcery Roll + Strain Roll

...but we're not ready for sorcery discussion yet.
Yeah, we're not ready but symmetry is good. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:48 pm 
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higgins wrote:
PC: "I'll spend a PA point to get a shot at the bastard."
NPC: "I'm not f***ing peeking!!!"

This would be like that court room example. Basically whenever players use Drama/PA to introduce scene elements, the storyteller can decide to counter-bid. The storyteller uses this to see just how important this is to the player(s) involved. If the storyteller concedes, then the player gets what he wants but at the price the storyteller sees as fair. If the player runs out of Drama or concedes, he retains his Drama but the elements remain in play.

Jon and allies are waylaid by bad guys in a forest near nightfall. Jon wants to shoot the archer who is hidden behind a barricade - it's deemed an impossible shot.

Jon: An impossible shot! Drats. OK, I need to get this guy and question him because I'm pretty sure Ryan is going to kill those guys he's fighting in melee. I spend a Drama. The sniper stands up when he hears a cry of pain from the swordsmen.
GM: (Counter-bids) Yes, but as he stands up one of his allies yell, "Watch out!" and he cautiously ducks back down.
Jon: Damn it. (Keep his Drama). But hey, he DID stand up, so I saw his face right?
GM: You did. When the fighting is over you can make an Acumen + Wits check to see if you remember where you've seen him before.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:01 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
GM: (Counter-bids) Yes, but as he stands up one of his allies yell, "Watch out!" and he cautiously ducks back down.
Jon: Damn it. (Keep his Drama).
If the GM can simply block the use of the points, why have them in a first place?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:45 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
GM: (Counter-bids) Yes, but as he stands up one of his allies yell, "Watch out!" and he cautiously ducks back down.
Jon: Damn it. (Keep his Drama).
If the GM can simply block the use of the points, why have them in a first place?


This counter-bid thing is just something that is starting to make sense to me. I haven't actually played this, but I have seen something like it in Dogs in a Vineyard and also on another thread here about social combat.

I was mentioning this as a possible way to address a concern of using Drama in these LOS shots. The valuable of the counter-bid mechanic should probably be discussed in a different thread later (when I'm not already following like 5).

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:00 am 
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higgins wrote:
Now, here's the kicker. The roll for creating LoS is made AFTER the shot. That's right. You first make the shot and THEN you see whether it hits the mark, or the crowd the target is covered by.[/i]


This sounds like my Timing Roll mod -- how can I argue with it?

higgins wrote:
Defending against missile attacks either works by blocking or evading. The evade TN defender uses depends on his surroundings. With plenty of cover and or throwing oneself down behind an obstacle, you get a TN 4. With barely adequate cover, you get TN 7. With no cover at all, you must use TN 9.


I prefer the passive Partial Evade because it will be the same mechanic used for defending against sorcery (where a passive defense takes place versus WP or whatever). However, this will resolve quicker so it better suits EoS combat environment.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:33 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
This sounds like my Timing Roll mod -- how can I argue with it?
I realised that some hours after I'd come up with it, too. :)

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