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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:53 pm 
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higgins wrote:
I think we need to cut away some of the extra mechanics. There's just too many of them.

Cool. So, what are we agreed on? Here's how I've been following it:

A ranged attacker has two Rolls.

1. Timing Roll vs. TN6 to overcome a difficulty set by Terrain (Range, Cover, Passive Defense, or other Complications).
2. Ranged Attack Roll vs. Weapon ATN to overcome a target's Active Defense (Evade), the MOS added to the DR to inflict a Wound.

At the beginning of his turn, the Archer declares his allocation between Timing, Attack, and those held in reserve for Reload. Does he need to hold back some for Terrain roll? If he had to move around, that could be lumped in with the Timing Roll?

  • If the Timing Rolls fails, the shot misses.
  • If the Timing Roll is victorious but the Attack roll fails, the shot misses.
  • If both rolls are victorious, the shot hits its target, inflicting (MOS + DR) damage. A d6 is roll to determine where the shot hit unless the archer spent a Point. Wasn't there another way to adjust the outcome of this in the TROS revisions? By sacrificing dice at the beginning?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:37 pm 
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3. Prep Roll vs. TN 6 -- if you want to take multiple shots

However, this is not the main issue here. IMO the biggest problem is handling the "outside influence to the melee combat".
- do we give flat reflex roll for the character's defense if he's aware of the archer?
- what if there are multiple archers? do we give multiple flat reflex rolls or will he need to divide?
- if we give flat reflex, why is this evasion dice pool so much smaller than the attack pool probably is?
- how will this flat reflex roll make sense? isn't all the effort summarised in the character's CP?
- if the active defense comes from the CP, how is its allocation handled?
- the combatant doesn't know if the shot misses or not, so, should missed shots be treated like Stop Short? the character elects to defend and his dice are wasted as there's no attack to defend against (arrow misses on its own)?

IMO the following option is the most reasonable:

Character in melee combat cannot use active defense against "outside" forces like ranged attacks (that come beyond close range)

And then we'd have Close range and Melee ranged attacks have slightly different rules that make more sense in a close combat environment -- Timing Rolls are never made -- there are some activation costs instead. Essentially Archer's MP becomes a CP in Close and Melee ranges.

Seanachai wrote:
A d6 is roll to determine where the shot hit unless the archer spent a Point. Wasn't there another way to adjust the outcome of this in the TROS revisions? By sacrificing dice at the beginning?[/list]
IIRC, the accuracy trait lets one choose adjust the d6 result from the zone. TFOB made the zone to be hit random at all ranges and there were some die sacrificial mechanics indeed to modify that (too complex IMO).

So, my version was to allow to pick any zone in up to Close range just like you do in melee, and then choosing the zone becomes increasingly random by the distance.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:14 pm 
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Ranged Combat wrote:
A ranged attacker has three potential Rolls.

1. Timing Roll vs. TN6 to overcome a difficulty set by Terrain (Range, Cover, Passive Defense, or other Complications).
2. Ranged Attack Roll vs. Weapon ATN to overcome a target's Active Defense (Evade), the MOS added to the DR to inflict a Wound.
3. Prep Roll vs. TN 6 to take an additional shot in a turn. Rolled one die at a time.


I'm OK now with there being three potential rolls for an archer. The truth is, most of the time you'll only be making one or two. If the target is covered, the weather poor, or the range too far, an archer is probably not going to have the skill (ie. Missile Pool) required to take snap shots. Situations in which a "Timing" Roll isn't required could be called a "Clear Shot". I like the way this sounds.

GM: You see the two bandits running out of the tavern down the street. You have one turn in which to stop them before they're in the cover of the ground and you risk harming a villager.
Archer (10MP): So I have a Clear Shot right now?
GM: You do, so...
Archer: Awesome! In that case, I'll put 5 dice aside for my second target. Here's my 5-die shot against the first one...

I would like to (later?) discuss the possibility of renaming the Timing Roll, since "timing" is something adjudicated by a Terrain Roll in melee combat. I suggest "Aim Roll" or "Targeting Roll". Thoughts?

Higgins wrote:
ICharacter in melee combat cannot use active defense against "outside" forces like ranged attacks (that come beyond close range). And then we'd have Close range and Melee ranged attacks have slightly different rules that make more sense in a close combat environment -- Timing Rolls are never made -- there are some activation costs instead. Essentially Archer's MP becomes a CP in Close and Melee ranges.


I like it. We can just say that in the abstract battlefield there are:

Combat Types wrote:
Close Combat: Action happening between characters within close range or shorter of one. Combat Pools refresh every two exchanges, Terrain Rolls are used, Targets of ranged attacks use the evade maneuver, etc, etc...

Ranged Combat: Action happening between characters at a range farther than Close, usually between archers or other ranged weapon combatants. Pools refresh every turn (limelight). Targets of ranged attacks rely on passive defense.


Now, on the issue of passive defense, what do we think about having static numbers? Think of nWOD where you have a passive defense score that doesn't change unless you're "dodging". We could say that a passive defense is half of the relevant attribute rounded down in successes. This represents what would otherwise be a roll (ie. active defense). For passive defense to apply, the target must be aware of the attack (?).

    Jon has Agility 3. His passive defense against an archer in Ranged Combat is 1. An archer in Ranged Combat must overcome Difficulty 1.
    Wil has Agility 4. His passive defense against an archer in Ranged Combat is 2. An archer in Ranged Combat must overcome Difficulty 2.
    (Llyth is enchanted fey-witch with an Agility of 6. Her passive defense against an archer in Ranged Combat is 3. An archer in Ranged Combat must overcome Difficulty 3.)
    Jon's Willpower is 3. Sorcerers - when they learn how magic works in EOS - will have a Difficulty 1 when using magic on Jon unaware.


higgins wrote:
So, my version was to allow to pick any zone in up to Close range just like you do in melee, and then choosing the zone becomes increasingly random by the distance.

Unless one spends Drama/PA point, then you can choose a zone even at a distant range?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Combat Types wrote:
Close Combat: Action happening between characters within close range or shorter of one. Combat Pools refresh every two exchanges, Terrain Rolls are used, Targets of ranged attacks use the evade maneuver, etc, etc...

Ranged Combat: Action happening between characters at a range farther than Close, usually between archers or other ranged weapon combatants. Pools refresh every turn (limelight). Targets of ranged attacks engaged in melee combat rely on passive defense.
Yes! (added red)

I also like the Clear Shot thing at first glance.

Seanachai wrote:
Now, on the issue of passive defense, what do we think about having static numbers?
I think passive defense should be the same for everyone as it just represents quick or random movement. If you want to use your skills to evade the arrows actively, you need to break away from the close combat -- then you can evade. I see no point in splitting hairs whether agility 2 character is easier running target than agility 3 one.

Essentially, the character in close combat can use the Terrain Rolls to make his opponent give him cover, but he's treated as unaware target nonetheless.

I have no problem with giving the mental attacks a whole new (Willpower+Steel?) pool to resist magical attacks -- this is not movement related and so, does not conflict with the CP mechanic.

Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
So, my version was to allow to pick any zone in up to Close range just like you do in melee, and then choosing the zone becomes increasingly random by the distance.
Unless one spends Drama/PA point, then you can choose a zone even at a distant range?
More than the zone. The exact spot. Eye slit of the visor or the missing scale of the Smaug.

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Last edited by higgins on Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:28 pm 
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higgins wrote:
I see no point in splitting hairs whether agility 2 character is easier running target than agility 3 one.

Sure.

higgins wrote:
More than the zone. The exact spot. Eye slit of the visor or the missing scale of the Smaug.

Nice! The usual benefit would be avoiding armor soaking or achieving some sort of narrative goal (ie. You have to break that gem at a distance to break the spell). Would these sorts of things usually be impossible without Drama/PA? What if we need precise aiming? Could that be a +2 or +3 Difficulty thing? You already have the "range band" rule (smaller in size = more difficult range). If a cat is like two range bands, would a cursed gem across the room be impossible without Drama/PA?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:30 pm 
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I edited my previous post and added a bit on the subject of passive defense.

Seanachai wrote:
If a cat is like two range bands, would a cursed gem across the room be impossible without Drama/PA?
If it's smaller than a rat, I guess +1 range band compared to the cat would be justifiable...

Actually, that's a pretty neat way of picking specific zone from further away! I never thought to use the smaller target mechanics for "called" shots, but I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:03 pm 
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higgins wrote:
I edited my previous post and added a bit on the subject of passive defense....I have no problem with giving the mental attacks a whole new (Willpower+Steel?) pool to resist magical attacks -- this is not movement related and so, does not conflict with the CP mechanic.

What I'm hearing is that we always want players to roll. In that case, I suggest we drop the term "passive defense" altogether because it will confuse players who are used to Active vs Passive Defense systems.

Instead we can talk about Resistance. Socially that's going to probably be Willpower + Social or Willpower + Skill (Etiquette, Trade?, etc). For my magic system direct spells target different essences of a character; for physical resistance it used to be Health, but in EOS would probably be Stamina + Willpower (for pain?). Spells targeting your mind could be Wits + Willpower or against a "fear" type spell, Willpower + Steel. In the write-up, I'll be sure to mention what sort of resistances are recommended.

(To speed things up, storytellers could always just assume the 50% success rate. If there are a bunch of baddies who are targeted by a player's sleep spell, I might just take half of their pool as the difficulty.)

higgins wrote:
Essentially, the character in close combat can use the Terrain Rolls to make his opponent give him cover, but he's treated as unaware target nonetheless.

That's a different interpretation of the multiple opponents Terrain roll. I always assumed a character would need to be aware - or at least cautious enough to make the decision - to start dancing around his opponent. I understand the metagame nature of the Terrain Roll, but if you're playing a character who has a depleted Combat Pool, there should be some in-game justification; I have always understand that as the character being vaguely aware that he's "a sitting duck".

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:16 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Essentially, the character in close combat can use the Terrain Rolls to make his opponent give him cover...

One thing that just occurred to me: Does that mean I can't take cover from an archer who is farther than Close from me? Let's say I'm down in the front, helping to siege a castle. I know there are enemy archers at the top of the rampart who are ready to send firey arrowy death down on me while I'm slicing up their less fortunate comrades. I am willing to reduce my Combat Pool by making a Terrain Roll to skirt around the battle so that the snipers have a hard time (gaining cover from established terrain). Would this not be possible?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
In that case, I suggest we drop the term "passive defense" altogether because it will confuse players who are used to Active vs Passive Defense systems.
Quite right.
Seanachai wrote:
Instead we can talk about Resistance. Socially that's going to probably be Willpower + Social or Willpower + Skill (Etiquette, Trade?, etc).
Let's call the target movement just another complication from the archer's part. I don't quite see the "resistances" or such playing a role in the skill system. For magic system... who knows?

Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
Essentially, the character in close combat can use the Terrain Rolls to make his opponent give him cover, but he's treated as unaware target nonetheless.
That's a different interpretation of the multiple opponents Terrain roll. I always assumed a character would need to be aware - or at least cautious enough to make the decision - to start dancing around his opponent. I understand the metagame nature of the Terrain Roll, but if you're playing a character who has a depleted Combat Pool, there should be some in-game justification; I have always understand that as the character being vaguely aware that he's "a sitting duck".
Let me rephrase. Character in melee, archer wants to snipe him:
- character not aware -- archer gets just a movement penalty
- character aware -- archer still gets just a movement penalty
- character aware and makes a terrain roll to use his opponent as cover -- archer gets a movement penalty AND a cover penalty if terrain roll succeeds

Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
Essentially, the character in close combat can use the Terrain Rolls to make his opponent give him cover...
One thing that just occurred to me: Does that mean I can't take cover from an archer who is farther than Close from me?
You can always take cover.
- if engaged in melee, you must use your opponent (or some other terrain element) for cover via terrain roll
- if not engaged in melee and actively avoiding the shot, cover determines you evasion TN

Seanachai wrote:
I know there are enemy archers at the top of the rampart who are ready to send firey arrowy death down on me while I'm slicing up their less fortunate comrades. I am willing to reduce my Combat Pool by making a Terrain Roll to skirt around the battle so that the snipers have a hard time (gaining cover from established terrain). Would this not be possible?
Sean: "I'll run behind that broken wall using the fighting as cover."
Higgins: "Will you jump flat if shot at?"
Sean: "No. Too many fighting."
Higgins: "TN7 when shot at then. Okay, there's a LOT of these guys. Let's make it 6 this time."
*Later when Sean is busy fighting*
Higgins: "Roll Wits+Acumen."
Sean: "2 successes."
Higgins: "You see an archer taking aim at you while you're fighting the Six-Fingered Man."
Sean: "I'll make a terrain roll to get the Six-Fingered Man between me and the archer to use him as cover." *Rolls as success*
Higgins: "That's complexity 2 shot for the archer. Both cover and movement."
Sean: "Wasn't there a barn burning?"
Higgins: "Yeah, smoke everywhere. +1 complexity for archer. He sees your friend Bob an easier shot at takes it."
Sean: "Bob? Noooo!!!!" :)

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Last edited by higgins on Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:59 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Instead we can talk about Resistance. Socially that's going to probably be Willpower + Social or Willpower + Skill (Etiquette, Trade?, etc).
Let's call the target movement just another complication from the archer's part.
Agreed!

higgins wrote:
Let me rephrase.
Character in melee, archer wants to snipe him...
...character not aware -- archer gets just a movement penalty
...character aware -- archer still gets just a movement penalty
...character aware and makes a terrain roll to use his opponent as cover -- archer gets a movement penalty AND a cover penalty if terrain roll succeeds
OK, and since character is in a melee situation, both his and the archer's combat pools are refreshing every two exchanges, right? If so, then perhaps I was writing that the refresh rate is determined by whether it is Close or Ranged combat.

higgins wrote:
You can always take cover.
...if engaged in melee, you must use your opponent for cover via terrain roll
...if not engaged in melee and actively avoiding the shot, cover determines you evasion TN

So character is walking down the street and sees an archer on the rooftop getting ready to snipe him. He has his full Combat Pool to evade and the archer has his full Missile Pool to take shots. It's possible then for multiple shots and multiple evades?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:02 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
So character is walking down the street and sees an archer on the rooftop getting ready to snipe him. He has his full Combat Pool to evade and the archer has his full Missile Pool to take shots. It's possible then for multiple shots and multiple evades?
I see why not.

Btw, added a combat example to the post above.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:03 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Higgins: "You see an archer taking aim at you while you're fighting the Six-Fingered Man."
Sean: "I'll make a terrain roll to get the Six-Fingered Man between me and the archer to use him as cover."
If you're going to run a PBP game on TROSFans for EOS, I think I've already got my first PA :D

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:04 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
So character is walking down the street and sees an archer on the rooftop getting ready to snipe him. He has his full Combat Pool to evade and the archer has his full Missile Pool to take shots. It's possible then for multiple shots and multiple evades?
I see why not.
Not complaining! It seems pretty cinematic. I see the archer has arrows in the ground. I probably would decide not to use all of my Combat Pool to evade the first shot.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:56 am 
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Can someone give me a quick explanation regarding the difference in mechanisms between shooting at a target that is in melee combat and one that is not?

I'm thinking in terms of a character that is in the melee but not engaged versus a character that is not in the melee (and in fact there is no melee going on in the scene).

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:44 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Can someone give me a quick explanation regarding the difference in mechanisms between shooting at a target that is in melee combat and one that is not?
Character in melee, archer wants to snipe him:
- character not aware -- archer gets just a movement/cover, etc penalties
- character aware -- archer still gets just movement/cover, etc penalties
- character aware and makes a terrain roll to use his opponent as cover -- archer gets a movement penalty AND a cover penalty if terrain roll succeeds

Character not in melee, archer wants to snipe him:
- character not aware -- archer gets just a movement/cover, etc penalties
- character aware -- archer still gets just movement/cover, etc penalties
- character aware and tries to dodge -- Evasion is used -- cover determines your Evasion TN (character is not moving randomly anymore, his actions are deliberate -- for better or worse)

Essentially:
- "not being aware" AND "being aware but not doing anything about it" are always identical
- if engaged in melee, you must use your opponent (or some other terrain element) for cover via terrain roll
- if not engaged in melee and actively avoiding the shot, cover determines your evasion TN

To summarise the reasoning:

It removes an awesome number of problems if we assume that a character engaged in the melee cannot actively defend against missiles shot from short range and beyond. IMO this makes sense too -- most of your attention is occupied with your melee opponent. The best you can do is to keep him between you and the archer -- which is exactly what these rules encourage you to do.

If one is not engaged (ie not threatened to be killed by an opponent if you take your eyes off him) then the character is free to focus his full attention to the archer and attempt to dodge his arrow.

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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