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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:44 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Can someone give me a quick explanation regarding the difference in mechanisms between shooting at a target that is in melee combat and one that is not?


higgins wrote:
Character in melee, archer wants to snipe him:
- character not aware -- archer gets just a movement/cover, etc penalties
- character aware -- archer still gets just movement/cover, etc penalties
- character aware and makes a terrain roll to use his opponent as cover -- archer gets a movement penalty AND a cover penalty if terrain roll succeeds


What happens if the target is in the melee but he is not actively engaged with an opponent? So the target has full CP available to devote to this task.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:55 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
What happens if the target is in the melee but he is not actively engaged with an opponent? So the target has full CP available to devote to this task.
You mean a pause? I don't think terrain rolls make sense in a pause, so, I guess I'd treat it as not being engaged. He'd have to use evasion (but vs TN7 as he has an opponent to hide behind, not TN9).

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:59 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
What happens if the target is in the melee but he is not actively engaged with an opponent? So the target has full CP available to devote to this task.

That's the example we were discussing of the guy in the street who notices the sniper on the rooftop. With full CP vs MP, he might have to dodge multiple shots.

I just wanted to make sure: Even if making multiple shots in a turn, an archer will only have to make ONE Timing Roll, right? The reason behind this being that the target's Terrain roll comes at the beginning of the limelight, so the cover difficulty wouldn't get more difficult until the next refresh.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
I just wanted to make sure: Even if making multiple shots in a turn, an archer will only have to make ONE Timing Roll, right? The reason behind this being that the target's Terrain roll comes at the beginning of the limelight, so the cover difficulty wouldn't get more difficult until the next refresh.
That's a good question. I'd have to say no, though. The timing roll is there to make cover and movement unpredictable for the shot. If there were only one roll for the limelight, the following scenarios would IMO be absurd:

a)
- character takes a shot (fail)
- character makes a timing roll (succeed)
- character can take a shot KNOWING that he has a clear shot
- purpose of timing roll has failed -- there's no randomness

b)
- character takes a shot (succeed)
- character makes a timing roll (fail)
- character can't take a new shot due failed timing
- purpose of timing roll has failed -- it has blocked the shot

So, essentially, I'd see it like this (a long example to make clear how I'd run one limelight of sniping, though it would require massive MP):


c)
- no active defense

- character allocates shot/timing dice
- character takes a shot (fail)
- timing dice wasted, arrow misses

- character allocates shot/timing dice
- character takes a shot (succeed)
- character makes a timing roll (fail)
- arrow misses

- character allocates shot/timing dice
- character takes a shot (succeed)
- character makes a timing roll (succeed)
- arrow hits


d)
- let's add active defense

- character allocates shot/timing dice
- target allocates defense dice
- character takes a shot (fail)
- timing dice wasted
- defense dice wasted
- arrow misses

- character allocates shot/timing dice
- target allocates defense dice
- character takes a shot (succeed)
- character makes a timing roll (fail)
- defense dice wasted
- arrow misses

- character allocates shot/timing dice
- target allocates defense dice
- character takes a shot (succeed)
- character makes a timing roll (succeed)
- defense roll is made (fail)
- arrow hits

HOWEVER, in case of active defense, the timing dice are only required...
...if target is further than the effective range
...if the attacker is on an unstable platform (cart, horse)
...if the target is very small (cat, called shots)

These do not factor in, when actively defending:
...if the target is moving fast or unpredictably (running, cart, horse, combat)
...if the target has significant cover (forest, crowd)
...if lighting or weather are very bad (almost dark, brisk wind, downpour)

Moving is modelled by defender's CP, cover is modelled by defender's TN, lighting and weather affect both

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
What happens if the target is in the melee but he is not actively engaged with an opponent? So the target has full CP available to devote to this task.


Seanachai wrote:
That's the example we were discussing of the guy in the street who notices the sniper on the rooftop. With full CP vs MP, he might have to dodge multiple shots.


I think they're different as the guy in the street isn't surrounded by melee -- therefore no CP and no terrain roll.

I'm actually referring to being in the melee scene but not having an opponent. So you have CP and can make terrain rolls but when the archer is firing you have no opponent. I'm just wondering if the size of this target's CP will make it easy for him to evade? I mean he's not splitting his pool with any other melee activity

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:33 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I'm actually referring to being in the melee scene but not having an opponent. So you have CP and can make terrain rolls but when the archer is firing you have no opponent. I'm just wondering if the size of this target's CP will make it easy for him to evade? I mean he's not splitting his pool with any other melee activity,

He might be splitting it to evade multiple ranged attacks (the archer could be doing snap shots after all) and try to close the distance with the archer, right?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:50 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I'm actually referring to being in the melee scene but not having an opponent. So you have CP and can make terrain rolls but when the archer is firing you have no opponent. I'm just wondering if the size of this target's CP will make it easy for him to evade? I mean he's not splitting his pool with any other melee activity,


Seanachai wrote:
He might be splitting it to evade multiple ranged attacks (the archer could be doing snap shots after all) and try to close the distance with the archer, right?


Let's keep this simple for a moment and assume he's not doing either of these things -- he is simply dodging the incoming arrow. The archer has MP and loses MP to any obstacles -- poor light, weather, whatever. The target has full CP and nothing else to do with it. I'm wondering if the NPC archer is likely to hit the PC warrior under these circumstances.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:58 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I'm wondering if the NPC archer is likely to hit the PC warrior under these circumstances

In your example the PC warrior has the terrain advantage and all he is trying to do is not get hit by an arrow. . . Seems like rolling a full CP makes sense. The question I have is why is there a PC in melee who doesn't have a melee opponent. It doesn't seem worth the limelight. Throw in two archers or have someone running toward him while the PC is being shot at. That would be much more exciting because it's requiring a tough decision.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:50 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I'm wondering if the NPC archer is likely to hit the PC warrior under these circumstances


Seanachai wrote:
In your example the PC warrior has the terrain advantage and all he is trying to do is not get hit by an arrow. . . Seems like rolling a full CP makes sense. The question I have is why is there a PC in melee who doesn't have a melee opponent.


... because he just killed his opponent?

... because the PC is a non-combatant that the other PCs are trying to protect?

... because there are more PCs than NPCs in the melee?

Why does the PC warrior have the terrain advantage? And should it be relatively easy for the PC to dodge this arrow?

Seanachai wrote:
It doesn't seem worth the limelight. Throw in two archers or have someone running toward him while the PC is being shot at. That would be much more exciting because it's requiring a tough decision.


:?:

OK.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:02 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Why does the PC warrior have the terrain advantage?
Ian.Plumb wrote:
The archer has MP and loses MP to any obstacles -- poor light, weather, whatever.
Since he's not engaged in combat, the Timing roll is just because of range, light, weather.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
... because he just killed his opponent?
... because the PC is a non-combatant that the other PCs are trying to protect?
... because there are more PCs than NPCs in the melee?
I understand, but if the action in the limelight is happening between two characters outside of Close Range, isn't that "Ranged Combat" and not "Melee Combat".

Higgins wrote:
Seanachai/Combat Types wrote:

Close Combat: Action happening between characters within close range or shorter. Combat Pools refresh every two exchanges, Terrain Rolls can be used, Targets of ranged attacks use the evade maneuver...

Ranged Combat: Action happening between characters at a range farther than Close, usually between archers or other ranged weapon combatants. Pools refresh every turn (limelight).Targets of ranged attacks engaged in melee combat may use Terrain rolls to gain cover from melee opponent.

Yes!

Red is what was just clarified.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:18 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
I understand, but if the action in the limelight is happening between two characters outside of Close Range, isn't that "Ranged Combat" and not "Melee Combat".


Is that how we're planning on doing it? The archer shoots at the PC in one Limelight and its Melee because the PC is fighting someone. Next Limelight its Ranged -- nobody has moved, the only difference is that the PC's opponent has been downed...?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:35 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Is that how we're planning on doing it? The archer shoots at the PC in one Limelight and its Melee because the PC is fighting someone. Next Limelight its Ranged -- nobody has moved, the only difference is that the PC's opponent has been downed...?
I hope we haven't confused our terms here. As I understand it, Melee just means that one or more of the characters involved in the limelight are using melee maneuvers. The terms Close and Ranged, however, refer to whether the limelight will have more than one refresh or not.

So after Wil dispatches his foe, he notices Archer NPC taking aim at him. During his next limelight, how many refreshes do we want to handle whether the archer hits him or not?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:49 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Is that how we're planning on doing it? The archer shoots at the PC in one Limelight and its Melee because the PC is fighting someone. Next Limelight its Ranged -- nobody has moved, the only difference is that the PC's opponent has been downed...?


Seanachai wrote:
I hope we haven't confused our terms here. As I understand it, Melee just means that one or more of the characters involved in the limelight are using melee maneuvers. The terms Close and Ranged, however, refer to whether the limelight will have more than one refresh or not.

So after Wil dispatches his foe, he notices Archer NPC taking aim at him. During his next limelight, how many refreshes do we want to handle whether the archer hits him or not?


I'm beginning to feel that the terminology is getting in the way of the discussion.

I think we should leave this question for now, just stick it in the Too Hard basket. Later when the mechanics have matured we can come back to it if need be.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:09 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I think we should leave this question for now...

OK - well let's go back to your original question:

Does an archer with a Timing roll to make stand any chance against a melee combatant with a full CP who can evade at some low TN because of cover?

Three possible answers:

1. Yes the archer stands a chance because he can split his MP into multiple attacks, each of which will require a separate evasion roll.
2. No the archer has a poor chance because the archer's roll will be hindered from Timing and the combatant can roll ALL his dice against a low TN. This is unrealistic or undesirable. We need to think about how to fix this (deny melee man from his full CP or something else).
3. No the archer has a poor chance because the archer's roll will be hindered from Timing and the combatant can roll ALL his dice against a low TN. This is acceptable: a man-of-arms doing nothing else but trying to avoid an arrow while cover abounds is more likely to evade than not evade.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:33 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
I think we should leave this question for now...


Seanachai wrote:
OK - well let's go back to your original question:

Does an archer with a Timing roll to make stand any chance against a melee combatant with a full CP who can evade at some low TN because of cover?


That's not the question I was asking.

Here's the sequence:

A PC warrior disposes of his opponent.

An NPC archer decides to shoot at him.

The rules as they currently stand seem to indicate that the PC warrior is in melee -- it just so happens that he has no opponent at this instant in time. As he is in melee and it is the start of the Round he has full CP -- and can perform a Terrain Roll or a defensive manoeuvre or both if need be.

Under these circumstances -- where the PC can spend his entire CP defending this archer's attack -- is it just too easy for the warrior to avoid the arrow?

Seanachai wrote:
1. Yes the archer stands a chance because he can split his MP into multiple attacks, each of which will require a separate evasion roll.
2. No the archer has a poor chance because the archer's roll will be hindered from Timing and the combatant can roll ALL his dice against a low TN. This is unrealistic or undesirable. We need to think about how to fix this (deny melee man from his full CP or something else).
3. No the archer has a poor chance because the archer's roll will be hindered from Timing and the combatant can roll ALL his dice against a low TN. This is acceptable: a man-of-arms doing nothing else but trying to avoid an arrow while cover abounds is more likely to evade than not evade.


Where is the cover for the PC warrior? He has no opponent so what exactly could he be using for cover?

Splitting MP into multiple attacks doesn't help the archer -- the terrain roll applies to the entire Round, the PC can split his CP across the attacks and still come out ahead on the dice count, and at the end of the Round he Refreshes.

As it stands I can's see the archer hitting the target because MP is going to be significantly less than CP.

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