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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:07 am 
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Ian, you probably missed my question:
Ian.Plumb wrote:
What happens if the target is in the melee but he is not actively engaged with an opponent? So the target has full CP available to devote to this task.
higgins wrote:
You mean a pause? I don't think terrain rolls make sense in a pause, so, I guess I'd treat it as not being engaged. He'd have to use evasion (but vs TN7 as he has an opponent to hide behind, not TN9).
...

Ian.Plumb wrote:
I think they're different as the guy in the street isn't surrounded by melee -- therefore no CP and no terrain roll.
Why would you deny someone his CP just because he's not in the middle of the fighting? I know TROS does this, but I never saw the rationale of giving pure Refex for Evasions if outside combat. For me, the character either can't use his CP at all (unaware, ignoring) or he can use it to full effect. I see no sense in the "you see the archer, but get Reflex only" middle ground.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:02 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
What happens if the target is in the melee but he is not actively engaged with an opponent? So the target has full CP available to devote to this task.


higgins wrote:
You mean a pause?
...

No. In a pause the PC has an NPC opponent it's just that they're not fighting at that particular instant -- but they will, and they're not disengaged. So in a pause the PC can still use the opponent as cover.

There are many, many reasons why a PC in the melee "zone" may not have an opponent.

... because the PC has just killed/maimed his opponent ...

... because there are more PCs than NPCs in the melee ...

... because the PC is a non-combatant surrounded by combatants ...

higgins wrote:
Why would you deny someone his CP just because he's not in the middle of the fighting? I know TROS does this, but I never saw the rationale of giving pure Refex for Evasions if outside combat. For me, the character either can't use his CP at all (unaware, ignoring) or he can use it to full effect. I see no sense in the "you see the archer, but get Reflex only" middle ground.


I would actually go the other way -- he can never use his CP, only Reflex (+ PAs).

A medieval wooden arrow with a bodkin arrow head leaves the bow at around 200 feet per second (fps). That's about a quarter the speed of a black powder weapon. It takes a quarter of a second to start reacting -- the arrow has now traveled 50 feet -- and some amount of time to physically move your body out of the space it was occupying when the arrow was released. Let's say that takes somewhere an eighth and a quarter of a second -- the arrow has traveled another 25 to 50 feet.

So within 75 - 100 feet it simply isn't physically possible to dodge. After that it is a matter of reflex as to how soon you recognize the threat and react to it.

Keep in mind that dodging an arrow isn't just a matter of reaction time. It is one visual element amongst many that must be processed into an appropriate reaction. This is no gun going off and the athletes sprint down the track. This is spotting a threat amongst many visual stimuli, assessing it, and reacting appropriately.

To me, a target inside 60 yards is running off straight Reflex -- and inside 30 yards it may not be physically possible to Evade.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:18 pm 
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Ah, I see, however... if we take this route... I'd simply remove the ability to use Evasions in short range and beyond. It would simply boil down to the timing roll. The target can roll the relevant PA's. Each success adds one to the timing roll difficulty (or subtract from the shot, I'm not sure yet). Throwing oneself down would also add +1 difficulty (this might require success on Agility+Wits roll). Mechanics are fuzzy at this point, but you get the gist of it.

In close and melee ranges, evasions would be possible as this is where the ranged attacker has to wave his weapon around to keep the target in sights. Also, shooting this close, the ranged combatants are in the danger of pulled into melee, this is why the slightly different mechanics are also needed IMO.

Evasions would still be possible versus thrown weapons.

How does this sound?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:28 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Ah, I see, however... if we take this route... I'd simply remove the ability to use Evasions in short range and beyond.


Short range or shorter, you mean (we're just talking about Short and Close). So I can spend CP to raise my shield and Block but can't use my CP to move out of the way. Is that right?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:50 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
Ah, I see, however... if we take this route... I'd simply remove the ability to use Evasions in short range and beyond.
Short range or shorter, you mean (we're just talking about Short and Close). So I can spend CP to raise my shield and Block but can't use my CP to move out of the way. Is that right?
I mean:
- melee & close: target uses evasions, blocks; shooter has no timing roll (activations instead; making TWO rolls for hitting someone less than 10 yards away sounds preposterous)
- short and beyond: just timing roll complications; shield acts as cover; large shield can act as impossible cover

Sure, the further you are the more you have time to react, but the further also the shooter is and the harder it is to pinpoint when he looses.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:34 am 
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higgins wrote:
making TWO rolls for hitting someone less than 10 yards
If you are 10 yards away, what sort of complications could there be? I'm a little iffy about the activation costs. I thought we were trying to keep those out as much as possible with ranged rolls.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:47 am 
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This is just an observation.

When I run a combat scene using figurines, the melee combatants are in the 2d/3d combat environment while the archers are not. The limelight is on the melee participants, the archers are off screen. As a result, I am struggling to think of a time when an archer was taking a shot at someone that was at Short, Close, or Melee distance.

From the perspective of ranged combat, is there really a functional difference between Close and Melee. It seems that at either of these distances the target can broach the distance in less time than it takes to prep and release.

With the 60 yard practical limit in play I'm guessing that missile weapons, as opposed to thrown weapons, are being used at Medium range most of the time (20 - 60 yards). But what I'm seeing in the missile weapons table is that most weapons are Effective from very short distances to the target. When you are using figs this looks quite odd -- the archers are six inches (12 yards) from the target rather than twenty (40 yards, and the reason they are usually off table).

As to how to handle the defenses of the target -- we're going to run into problems if we aim for "one size fits all". Thrown weapons travel much slower than missile weapons which travel much slower than (hypothetical) sorcery effects. A thrown weapon is, to me, a function of melee combat. Therefore the target uses CP to defend as with any melee attack. An arrow though travels at high speed -- 200 fps at a minimum (that's 136 mph or 220 kph) when it leaves the bow. This is significantly different to a thrown weapon, and requires different mechanics to dodge -- Reflex only at Melee, Close, or Short but CP at Medium.

A musket ball on the other hand leaves the muzzle at around 950 fps. The speed of sound is around 1125 fps. There is no dodge at Melee, Close, or Short range and Reflex only at Medium.

At least these are my thoughts. I don't really mind how it is handled, but I would like to see velocity taken into account when it comes to how much (or little) the target can do in order to defend.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:22 am 
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It seems like we're circling here. We're considering having archers make Timing Rolls and lose dice, and we're thinking about limiting the Evade maneuver to attacks made from a distance. We've discussed allowing targets to make Terrain Rolls to gain cover, which lowers their TNs AND creates a sponge of difficulties the archer has to get over. Honestly, this ranged combat thing is getting kind of complicated.

What We Agree On
Spoiler: show
Archer's have MP
Fighters have CP when they're running around hacking people
Fighters don't really have a CP when they're standing around

Archers shoot people
Archers have a number of complications that stop them from reaching their goal of shooting people
...range
...terrain (trees, light, weather)
...unruly targets (moving around randomly or on purpose, evading)

I'm also assuming that if an archer doesn't have Line of Sight, he can't make a shot until he does. If a target has cover, the archer can still make a shot.

Now, Ian brought up a good point: the limelight is on the players not the NPCs. That means everything is player-centric, including the rules. In general we want all the exciting stuff to be happening on the players' side of the screen.

higgins wrote:
Ah, I see, however... if we take this route... I'd simply remove the ability to use Evasions in short range and beyond...
- short and beyond: just timing roll complications; shield acts as cover; large shield can act as impossible cover

If the player is an archer, then he should be having interesting decisions like rolling a Timing Roll and Ranged Attack Roll. Whether the NPC being unruly is a static difficulty stacked onto the Timing Roll or whether it's a contest, doesn't matter much from the perspective of the player.

If the player is the fighter, he's going to want to DO something if he can, right? If he's in the heat of a battle, his enemy has just been dispatched, arrows are whizzing around, and then as the limelight switches to him he's told there's an archer behind the duke's men-at-arms taking aim at him from far away. Holy crap! He picks up his dice and is told, "Sorry - they're in short range. Go ahead and put your dice down. I'm going to be rolling a few times back here...I'll let you know how it goes."

Instead, why don't we just make it more fun for the player?

  • If his character is aware and he's the target, the player's making Terrain Rolls to gain cover to help his Evasion or rob the archer of Line of Sight. Dodging a fast bullet should feel more difficult because the gunman has a lower TN and consequently more successes.
  • If the player is the archer and he's trying to take out a bad guy who knows he's there and is moving around, he faces a higher difficulty on his Timing Roll.

Activation costs have been discussed. In WOD gunman lose dice from their pool based on a static trait of their intended victim or because of complications in the terrain. I always hated that to be honest. I'd rather give the target bonus dice to evade if they have cover or something else helping them.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:18 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
making TWO rolls for hitting someone less than 10 yards
If you are 10 yards away, what sort of complications could there be?
- moving target
- cover (shield)
- closer than effective range

Ian.Plumb wrote:
From the perspective of ranged combat, is there really a functional difference between Close and Melee.
Well... if you have a loaded weapon such pistol or a crossbow, shooting someone at a few meters away is certainly more viable than doing so close up when threatened by melee weapons.

We could juggle with the successes though. Perhaps make it...
Melee ↔ Close = Difficulty 1
Close ↔ Short = Difficulty 2 [modified +1 in case of tricky terrain]
Short ↔ Medium = One limelight

Though I think it's odd to have a cost for two melee combatants to engage, some cost to movement makes sense.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
With the 60 yard practical limit in play I'm guessing that missile weapons, as opposed to thrown weapons, are being used at Medium range most of the time (20 - 60 yards).
I'm thinking they'd be used in short (up to 25 yards).

This is 60 m: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Field ... ecurve.jpg

Ian.Plumb wrote:
As to how to handle the defenses of the target -- we're going to run into problems if we aim for "one size fits all". Thrown weapons travel much slower than missile weapons which travel much slower than (hypothetical) sorcery effects. A thrown weapon is, to me, a function of melee combat. Therefore the target uses CP to defend as with any melee attack.
That's what I said :)
higgins wrote:
Evasions would still be possible versus thrown weapons.


Ian.Plumb wrote:
A musket ball on the other hand leaves the muzzle at around 950 fps. The speed of sound is around 1125 fps. There is no dodge at Melee, Close, or Short range and Reflex only at Medium.
I'd really do it the other way around:
- standard CP defense for melee & close
- no defense short & beyond -- timing only

Four reasons:
- if we remove the possibility of defense close up, firearms become the ultimate melee weapon
- in close up, I imagine the defender's reaction would be based on bringing the weapon to bear, not on bullets leaving the muzzle. Both have their full pools, but gunman has a TN advantage
- I don't think dodging bullets from medium range really models how firearm combat works... if you see a gun, you run for cover, making a tough shot for the one who aims, and if you get to the cover, shot is impossible. staying put might not be a good idea as the other may relocate.
- I like the the feeling of helplessness when one has no cover

Seanachai wrote:
If the player is the fighter, he's going to want to DO something if he can, right? If he's in the heat of a battle, his enemy has just been dispatched, arrows are whizzing around, and then as the limelight switches to him he's told there's an archer behind the duke's men-at-arms taking aim at him from far away. Holy crap! He picks up his dice and is told, "Sorry - they're in short range. Go ahead and put your dice down. I'm going to be rolling a few times back here...I'll let you know how it goes."
As I said to Ian, I like the sense of helplessness. That's not to say the character won't have options. He can:
- run (+1 timing, movement)
- raise his shield if he has one or use some other cover (+1 timing, cover)
- throw himself down (+1 timing, that's a new option)
- roll his firing PAs to decrease the shot successes (as opposed to increasing the difficulty)

What I don't want to happen is the character standing there and evade one arrow after another Matrix style because his three highest rating SAs are firing or because of his high Proficiency.

Seanachai wrote:
I'd rather give the target bonus dice to evade if they have cover or something else helping them.
Seems we have quite opposite goals. You'd like to stress the target's skill while faced by archer and treat cover a bonuses, while I'd like to stress the target's helplessness in the same situation and treat cover as essential for survival.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:33 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Close ↔ Short = Difficulty 2 [modified +1 in case of tricky terrain]
Short ↔ Medium = One limelight

What does this mean? Range bands are circles around one character, so you can't talk about Short to Medium, right? Two characters are either at Close, Short, Medium, or Long. They're not at Short to Short.

higgins wrote:
Seems we have quite opposite goals.
Same goal: Make an awesome game. :D I guess my only concern is having all the rolling on my side of the screen with non-intuitive choices for the player, but I like the list you gave. It'll be easier for me to playtest this out and see how it really feels when you've had a chance to compile all this.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:19 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
Close ↔ Short = Difficulty 2 [modified +1 in case of tricky terrain]
Short ↔ Medium = One limelight
What does this mean? Range bands are circles around one character, so you can't talk about Short to Medium, right? Two characters are either at Close, Short, Medium, or Long. They're not at Short to Short.
The arrows are meant to represent moving from one range to another.

So, two characters are at Close range. If one wants to back away to Short, he makes a terrain roll, other can oppose.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:21 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Perhaps make it...
Melee ↔ Close = Difficulty 1
Close ↔ Short = Difficulty 2 [modified +1 in case of tricky terrain]
Short ↔ Medium = One limelight...Though I think it's odd to have a cost for two melee combatants to engage, some cost to movement makes sense.

Maybe it'll just be easier to say that it's always at will unless it's contested.

higgins wrote:
I'd really do it the other way around:
- standard CP defense for melee & close
- no defense short & beyond -- timing only
I'm coming around on this. There should just be a note on the Evade maneuver about evading ranged attacks coming from Short or farther.

I think we just need to clarify one or two more things here. The distinction between Line of Sight and cover is unclear to me. Here's how I understand it: If I the target rob LOS through a terrain roll, I'm safe for the round (archer can't fire). If I seek cover, I'm a little safer (+1 or 2 to difficulty). Why wouldn't I always do the former?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Oh, and one last thing about movement in combat.

If we go from the former table it costs Difficulty 0 to move to Close and Difficulty 1 to move to Short and Difficulty 2 to move to Medium, can I just roll once and try to get to Medium (Difficulty 1+2) in one Terrain Roll?

And, if I fail at any of these rolls, I'm losing half my CP and ending up...where? Do partial successes indicate any sort of significant movement or does the abstraction just soak that and say, "Well you're yards away, but you're still in Short range..."

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:42 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
I think we just need to clarify one or two more things here. The distinction between Line of Sight and cover is unclear to me. Here's how I understand it: If I the target rob LOS through a terrain roll, I'm safe for the round (archer can't fire). If I seek cover, I'm a little safer (+1 or 2 to difficulty). Why wouldn't I always do the former?
I think I had an idea to keep them separate, but now I don't think I see a place in LoS mechanics anymore. There's cover, or there's impossible cover.

Seanachai wrote:
If we go from the former table it costs Difficulty 0 to move to Close and Difficulty 1 to move to Short and Difficulty 2 to move to Medium, can I just roll once and try to get to Medium (Difficulty 1+2) in one Terrain Roll?
Don't see why not...

Seanachai wrote:
And, if I fail at any of these rolls, I'm losing half my CP and ending up...where? Do partial successes indicate any sort of significant movement or does the abstraction just soak that and say, "Well you're yards away, but you're still in Short range..."
I don't think he'd need to lose half CP for not reaching the target... Also, I don't think the exact distance matters... point is, he won't reach it and his only option to interfere is to throw his weapon, possibly costing him a PA point as it's out of maximum range.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:51 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
I think we just need to clarify one or two more things here. The distinction between Line of Sight and cover is unclear to me. Here's how I understand it: If I the target rob LOS through a terrain roll, I'm safe for the round (archer can't fire). If I seek cover, I'm a little safer (+1 or 2 to difficulty). Why wouldn't I always do the former?
I think I had an idea to keep them separate, but now I don't think I see a place in LoS mechanics anymore. There's cover, or there's impossible cover.
OK, so if Archer has a Clear Shot/Line of Sight, that just means no significant cover. If he doesn't have a Clear Shot/Line of Sight, that means he's rolling a Timing Roll (to be renamed later, I hope!)

higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
If we go from the former table it costs Difficulty 0 to move to Close and Difficulty 1 to move to Short and Difficulty 2 to move to Medium, can I just roll once and try to get to Medium (Difficulty 1+2) in one Terrain Roll?
Don't see why not...
Moving such a distance in one refresh should also carry with it an increase in Fatigue - at least if you're wearing armor. I know we don't have Fatigue all figured out, yet, but let's make a note that moving in armor should tire us out somehow. The CP spent to move isn't enough to reflect how such a burst of speed might tire you out for the whole bout. Perhaps failing a Terrain Roll to move while in armor results in losing half your remaining CP as per other Terrain Rolls.

higgins wrote:
I don't think he'd need to lose half CP for not reaching the target... Also, I don't think the exact distance matters... point is, he won't reach it and his only option to interfere is to throw his weapon, possibly costing him a PA point as it's out of maximum range.
OK - but what we have here is a change from the original concept of Terrain Rolls: You want to do something not otherwise covered by the rules? OK - here's your difficulty, roll for it, but if you fail you'll get stuck somewhere or stumble and lose half your CP.

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