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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:00 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Since Timing is rolled AFTER the Attack...
I thought the newer idea was to just have the players declare both pools at the same time. Doing that, it doesn't matter which one is physically rolled first as the decision would already be made. Doing this means that if the target is evading, he doesn't have to roll evade.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:19 pm 
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For me, reloading is more of Stunt than Timing, but I'll digest that a bit.

Decreasing the number of rolls would definitely be a good thing, but it doesn't feel as natural IMO.

Also, I think separating the two would give more control to the player -- he reloads his crossbow:
- he either makes it in time or doesn't...
- and if he does, then he judges his pool, opting for a difficult shot or an easier one

Lumping all difficulties together would make the Timing Roll gamble bigger as the Difficulties pile up. Also, I like the fact that having these separated, one can miss a shot while reloading. If you combine this into everything else, it's not clear what ruined the shot exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:42 pm 
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higgins wrote:
For me, reloading is more of Stunt than Timing, but I'll digest that a bit.
That's true. Ducking down to grab an arrow in the ground and draw your string in one motion does see more cinematic stunt-ish.

higgins wrote:
Also, I like the fact that having these separated, one can miss a shot while reloading. If you combine this into everything else, it's not clear what ruined the shot exactly.
If the hero rolls 2 successes but it was difficulty 2 to reload and difficulty +1 because the target is moving around, I think it would be pretty easy intuitive to say, "You get the arrow in time, but the effort threw off your timing and you missed your opportunity."

Either way it wouldn't matter much because he's going to start the next limelight with a prepped weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:04 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
If the hero rolls 2 successes but it was difficulty 2 to reload and difficulty +1 because the target is moving around, I think it would be pretty easy intuitive to say, "You get the arrow in time, but the effort threw off your timing and you missed your opportunity."

Either way it wouldn't matter much because he's going to start the next limelight with a prepped weapon.
That's one of the reasons I'd keep them separate. Prepping failure would result in a missed opportunity, timing failure would mean a missed shot. If you roll these things into one, players would probably be interpreting based on their rolled successes whether they actually shot the arrow or not? No?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:06 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Prepping failure would result in a missed opportunity, timing failure would mean a missed shot. If you roll these things into one, players would probably be interpreting based on their rolled successes whether they actually shot the arrow or not? No?
Hmm, that's not as much of a concern to me as is telling a player he has to be successful at 3 rolls before he can shoot someone. :D

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:17 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Hmm, that's not as much of a concern to me as is telling a player he has to be successful at 3 rolls before he can shoot someone. :D
That's a fair point of course. I've tried to minimise this issue revised the bows a bit.

Prep difficulties:
Bows, slings: 0 [+1 when taking ammunition from quiver, not from ground]
Crossbows spanned w/o mechanical devices: 2 [+1 when taking bolts from quiver, not from ground]
Blackpowder firearms: 4 [optional rule for Richard Sharpe fans]

I'm not sure whether replacing the "quiver penalty" with activation costs would make the mechanic muddier or streamline it. I suspect the former.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:58 pm 
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higgins wrote:
I'm not sure whether replacing the "quiver penalty" with activation costs would make the mechanic muddier or streamline it. I suspect the former.
Well, options are:

1. Word document as difficulty penalty for quiver
2. Word document as difficulty bonus for grounded arrows and bolts
3. Provide bonus dice for grounding arrows/bolts ahead of time

For the "head start" feel, I recommend 2 or 3.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:02 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
1. Word document as difficulty penalty for quiver
2. Word document as difficulty bonus for grounded arrows and bolts
3. Provide bonus dice for grounding arrows/bolts ahead of time.
Bold mine. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 7:19 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Bows, slings: 0 [+1 when taking ammunition from quiver, not from ground]
Crossbows spanned w/o mechanical devices: 2 [+1 when taking bolts from quiver, not from ground]
Blackpowder firearms: 4 [optional rule for Richard Sharpe fans]
I'm thinking prep rolls might indeed be too much.

What if... Crossbow loading made you just lose the "aim" part? Using just your proficiency would be much simpler and the dice pool cost would be similar. Quiver might just add an activation cost.

However, I also like having MP a single number such as CP. So, removing "aim" (which isn't even defined anymore) or just using proficiency isn't really intuitive within that concept. And halving the pool would be unfair to high proficiency characters...

It would be impossible to mess up loading, too... unless someone spends a PA point to trigger such event.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:01 am 
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higgins wrote:
higgins wrote:
Bows, slings: 0 [+1 when taking ammunition from quiver, not from ground]
Crossbows spanned w/o mechanical devices: 2 [+1 when taking bolts from quiver, not from ground]
Blackpowder firearms: 4 [optional rule for Richard Sharpe fans]
I'm thinking prep rolls might indeed be too much.

What if... Crossbow loading made you just lose the "aim" part? Using just your proficiency would be much simpler and the dice pool cost would be similar. Quiver might just add an activation cost.

However, I also like having MP a single number such as CP. So, removing "aim" (which isn't even defined anymore) or just using proficiency isn't really intuitive within that concept. And halving the pool would be unfair to high proficiency characters...

It would be impossible to mess up loading, too... unless someone spends a PA point to trigger such event.


I weaved through all 7 pages of this and however many of the other thread that also discussed some of this. Ha. forgive me if I've missed something or misunderstood it:

I love the reduction of ranges to bands. I have always hated BSing numerical ranges to my players in combat. That said, we should probably be careful how we handle firing at close or melee range. It makes total sense to penalize a longbow archer from firing point blank in combat. A black-powder pocket pistol, on the other hand is really only accurate to melee or close range. Most pistols in general are meant for close-quarters combat.

I also really enjoy the idea of having archers separate their pool into attack rolls and "timing" or whatnot - though I wonder how complicated it is in practice. From what I can tell, there are a lot of variables and things that go into it. Moreover, it seems to be used in multiple ways. If I want to reload my weapon quickly -and- line of sight is in question, am I making a total of four rolls that round? What if I'm firing twice that round?
* Fire prepared shot
* Line of Sight roll
* Reload roll
* Fired newly prepared shot
* Line of sight roll?

And then dice for moving, just in case.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.

In the last post you mentioned altering or dropping the reload roll, but I would have to see exactly how the new version would work. Would the 'activation cost' simply be the loss of 2 dice to reload a crossbow? Under that assumption is it free to reload a bow in the same limelight?

Secondary question: all of this seems to assume that the character is reloading during a limelight to take another shot. Do characters automatically get to reload between limelights? Perhaps I may have misunderstood somewhere.

All said, I love the direction this has taken, and I love the idea of it. It will just take play-testing to work out the flow of it. I'm having a hard time picturing the flow of an archery limelight turn at the moment. This is undoubtedly more of an issue of my having read this all at once than with the rules proposed though.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:23 am 
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KazianG wrote:
I love the reduction of ranges to bands. I have always hated BSing numerical ranges to my players in combat.
Glad you like it!

KazianG wrote:
It makes total sense to penalize a longbow archer from firing point blank in combat. A black-powder pocket pistol, on the other hand is really only accurate to melee or close range. Most pistols in general are meant for close-quarters combat.
Yes, that's modelled by the weapon's effective range. Bow & muskets are Short, black powder pistols are Close, so, when it comes to melee, pistol is easier to shoot as the effective range is more similar. I'd still like to keep a penalty for the actual melee shooting or pistols would become the best melee weapon ever due their low ATN. If there were no hefty penalties, I can see Pistol&Shield combos coming up ATN5/DTN5.

KazianG wrote:
I also really enjoy the idea of having archers separate their pool into attack rolls and "timing" or whatnot - though I wonder how complicated it is in practice. From what I can tell, there are a lot of variables and things that go into it. Moreover, it seems to be used in multiple ways. If I want to reload my weapon quickly -and- line of sight is in question, am I making a total of four rolls that round? What if I'm firing twice that round?
* Fire prepared shot
* Line of Sight roll
* Reload roll
* Fired newly prepared shot
* Line of sight roll?
Yes, that's just it. Too many rolls, so, I want to cut some, yet, I'm not sure how to model that. I mean, if we have this roll or activation cost, what happens really? The shots taken more quickly are less accurate due the diminished dice pool, and that's really not the way it should be. I mean, the stirrup-crossbow guy doesn't make sloppier shots in general than the cranequin-crossbow guy, does he? I'd warrant that he simply has a better rate of fire and they take roughly equal time for aiming ans such.

So, I'm rather tempted to drop the roll/activation cost and just go by the limelights.

Quote:
Bows, slings: 0 limelight [activation cost of 2 for taking ammunition from quiver, not from ground]
Crossbows spanned w/o mechanical devices: 1 limelight [activation cost of 2 for taking ammunition from quiver, not from ground]
Blackpowder firearms & mechanically spanned crossbows: 2 limelights [+1 limelight using loose powder/horn]
Sure, it falls under this "I'm just waiting" category, but:
a) it would model that these latter weapons are extremely slow to load for the purposes of individual combat
b) it would show why boarding parties carried multiple firearms
c) we could modify the loading times with edges -- british redcoat reloads brown bess in a single limelight, etc, however, I don't see the crossbow reloading times dropping to less than one limelight, or it would just be too unfair to bows

As for the Timing rolls, my design idea was that these aren't used in every shot -- just the ones that are heavy in complications. As such, I'm also tempted to remove the "combat movement" from giving +1 difficulty, as that's the standard situation and I want the Timing rolls to be made only in exceptional ones or it would slow the game down.

KazianG wrote:
Secondary question: all of this seems to assume that the character is reloading during a limelight to take another shot. Do characters automatically get to reload between limelights? Perhaps I may have misunderstood somewhere.
I don't think reloading between the limelights is a good way to go. I'd prefer the weapon either to be instantly ready, or robbing some of the screen time, or robbing a LOT of it and thus making it not viable to reload during most individual combats (as blackpowder firearms should be).

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:40 pm 
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higgins wrote:
So, I'm rather tempted to drop the roll/activation cost and just go by the limelights.

Quote:
Bows, slings: 0 limelight [activation cost of 2 for taking ammunition from quiver, not from ground]
Crossbows spanned w/o mechanical devices: 1 limelight [activation cost of 2 for taking ammunition from quiver, not from ground]
Blackpowder firearms & mechanically spanned crossbows: 2 limelights [+1 limelight using loose powder/horn]
Sure, it falls under this "I'm just waiting" category
I know this came up earlier in the thread. I think a design philosophy has always been that a Limelight is more than a round in the D&D sense. If melee fighters get several exchanges for their limelight but all the poor archer gets is a counter that ticks by, that's pretty lame and I would never want to play an archer. It also doesn't make sense since another design philosophy I thought we adopted was that a limelight is an indefinite amount of time.

Brief summary of options discussed:

You are an archer. Your bow is emptied during a limelight. And then...

...(a) you pay activation costs to have it loaded again.
...(b) you make a roll to have it loaded it again.
...(c) you begin the next limelight with it loaded it again.
...(d) a combination thereof
...(e) you must wait X limelights before you begin a limelight with it loaded.

Problems with (e):

1. Boring
2. Breaks with design philosophy
3. Number of other PCs affects "how fast" I'm reloading; what happens if it's just me? NPCs don't get limelights...so then what?

It seems that black powder fire arms are what are preventing us from adopting an a-d type approach. I know this is really important to Higgins, but it wouldn't be too complicated to treat reloading fire arms differently.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:48 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
...(a) you pay activation costs to have it loaded again.
...(b) you make a roll to have it loaded it again.
As I said, the major problem with these solutions is that if you compare bow vs crossbow, you DON'T get a different rate of fire. You get the SAME rate of fire and SLOPPIER SHOTS from the crossbowman (smaller MP). I don't think this makes sense.

Seanachai wrote:
...(c) you begin the next limelight with it loaded it again.
I'm completely happy with that happening for bows (as I wrote 0 limelights), but if we used that solution all over the board, we'd effectively eliminate reloading times. No?

Seanachai wrote:
It seems that black powder fire arms are what are preventing us from adopting an a-d type approach. I know this is really important to Higgins, but it wouldn't be too complicated to treat reloading fire arms differently.
I'd be completely happy with putting black powder firearms on the same bench with cranequin/windlass crossbows, so, I don't think they are an issue specifically.

Seanachai wrote:
3. Number of other PCs affects "how fast" I'm reloading; what happens if it's just me? NPCs don't get limelights...so then what?
If you and your opponent have weapons of the same category, you go red/red to see who wins. If one has a slower weapon, he must find cover and other attempts to keep LoS. If one has a melee weapon and other a ranged weapon, it depends on the distance between the combatants which one should run.

Seanachai wrote:
NPCs don't get limelights...
To be frank, I'm still mighty confused with how that would work... I mean, how can the enemies do something on their own initiative if they have no access to limelight?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:48 am 
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If we assume that reload time/whatever is the same for a bow regardless (free reload each limelight) then what is the purpose of the "stick the arrows in the ground" bit under these rules?

I'm siding with Higgins on the reload times bit. If a bow and crank-crossbow (and firearm) all have the same rate of fire, it seems like you're losing some of that which distinguishes them. One of my peeves about D&D was the way in which ranged weapons turned most characters into machine guns. I like the idea that it takes some time to ready a shot and draw a bead on a target.

I also wasn't particularly satisfied with the "snap shot" crossbow effect either. It somehow brings to mind someone firing a shotgun from the hip.

That said, I can't constructively say anything on this topic because I'm still a bit confused about the limelight mechanic, and I seem to have lost the original thread or some such. If anyone would like to post and/or message me a link to it, I'd be grateful. This whole conversation sort of leads me to believe I misunderstood the mechanic in the first place.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Creating a line of sight a.k.a. Timing the shot
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:38 pm 
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KazianG wrote:
If we assume that reload time/whatever is the same for a bow regardless (free reload each limelight) then what is the purpose of the "stick the arrows in the ground" bit under these rules?
I'd be happy to make this simply an activation cost of 2 dice (as I suggested). Your shot wouldn't be as sloppy as in case of reloading roll, but it would show that you're in a hurry and it costs you, especially when this cost multiplies if you want to take multiple shots with your bow in one limelight.

KazianG wrote:
That said, I can't constructively say anything on this topic because I'm still a bit confused about the limelight mechanic, and I seem to have lost the original thread or some such. If anyone would like to post and/or message me a link to it, I'd be grateful. This whole conversation sort of leads me to believe I misunderstood the mechanic in the first place.
As I get it, the limelight mechanic has something to do with the "role" the player "chooses for his character" and if the player needs to "waste" some of his "screen time" preparing to act in "his chosen role", all the sacred tenets of good RPG design have been broken. To me, this sounds like D&D 4e, but perhaps I've misunderstood the concepts as well.

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