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 Post subject: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:35 pm 
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The best thing about playing a "Roll Attribute + X" game is the freedom it gives you as a referee: "You want to scare him with your strange contortionist powers? ....Um, Agility + Intimidation..."

That being said, I'd like to expand on Higgins's list. It might also be helpful to know what should commonly be used to resist these rolls if this turns out to be a contest. I probably don't have the same updated skill list as Higgins, so this will have to be redone later.

Attribute + Attribute

Name : Pool vs Resisted By...

    Feat of Strength : Strength + Stamina vs Strength + Stamina
    Insight|Empathy : Wits + Social vs Wits + Social or Social + Deceit
    Memorization : Acumen + Willpower
    Perception|Awareness : Wits + Acumen vs Agility + Stealth
    Remembrance : Acumen + Wits
    Resistance : Stamina + Willpower vs Sorcery Pool (TBD)
    Sprint : Strength + Agility

Attribute + Skill
    Bargaining : Social + Resources vs Social + Willpower (?)
    Bluffing : Social + Deceit vs "Insight" (Wits + Social)
    Climbing, Jumping : Strength + Athletics
    Diplomacy : Social + Etiquette/Trade vs Wits + Willpower
    Examining : Wits + Survival/Lore
    Foot Chase : Stamina + Athletics vs Stamina + Athletics

Perhaps it would be useful to just have two generic resistances: physical and mental. Spells are going to basically target one of these areas, so they could be used to resolve that as well.

Physical Resistance: Strength + Stamina or Stamina + Willpower
Mental Resistance: Wits + Willpower

As usual, players could offer to roll a Skill instead of an attribute if it is pertinent.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:47 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Perhaps it would be useful to just have two generic resistances: physical and mental. Spells are going to basically target one of these areas, so they could be used to resolve that as well.

I would in any case vote also for a generic "social resistance". If somebody tries to seduce or bamboozle you, resisting with Wits + Willpower doesn't feel exactly right to me.

But I don't see the advantages of having two types of generic resistances at all. Where do you see the benefit over using situational resistance?

Seanachai wrote:
As usual, players could offer to roll a Skill instead of an attribute if it is pertinent.

What I'd like to know - and I can't find anything about that in higgins' document - is what happens if somebody "attacks" with Attribute + pertinent Skill and there would be a pertinent Skill for defense but the defender is lacking that Skill or has this Skill at a lower rating than some less pertinet Attribute.

Example, in line with higgins' document p. 3:
AA wants to pick the pockets of BB. AA has Agility 3 and Larcency 4, BB has Wits 3, Acumen 3 and Larceny 0. Should BB be allowed not to switch the less closely connected Attribute (Acumen) for Larcency and thus roll 6 dice (Wits 3 + Acumen 3) instead of 3 dice (Wits 3 + Larcency 0) in defence?

I don't think so, as I would consider this actually unfair to the skilled character. I would like to see the rule that if there is a Skill closer connected to the activity than another, second Attribute, the character has to use it in both "attack" and "defence", even if he does not have this Skill.

Opinions?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:57 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
I would in any case vote also for a generic "social resistance"
Of course! I knew I had meant to write "three generic resistances".

Grettir wrote:
But I don't see the advantages of having two types of generic resistances at all. Where do you see the benefit over using situational resistance?
I didn't mean to say this should somehow be placed on the character sheet or anything; this is more "behind the referee's screen" type stuff. I'd just like to know what makes sense to everyone so I can be consistent in the game ("...Wait, last time in a similar situation you said Wits and not Acumen; what gives, Sean!" :oops: )

Grettir wrote:
What I'd like to know - and I can't find anything about that in higgins' document - is what happens if somebody "attacks" with Attribute + pertinent Skill and there would be a pertinent Skill for defense but the defender is lacking that Skill or has this Skill at a lower rating than some less pertinet Attribute.

The Pre-Alpha says when called on to make an Attribute + Skill roll a player can't substitute Skill for an attribute and suffers a -1 die penalty if he doesn't have the skill in question. This is like nWOD. So if I don't have larceny but am trying to pick a lock, I would have to roll Agility -1.

However, that's when you're the agent. Maybe when you're the patient you should always be called on to make an Attribute + Attribute resistance roll and have the option of substituting in a skill - which is at least one good reason to have physical, mental, and social resistance pools already thought out; players will know how they'll be expected to resist but can then think about whether they have a pertinent skill that might be more effective.

So if I'm pick-pocketing another pick-pocket, he might be called on to roll Wits + Acumen to notice what's going on. Since his Larceny skill is higher than his Acumen, he might be allowed to roll that instead. If he had Larceny: Pickpocketing, he might even get a bonus die for his specialty.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:04 pm 
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Social is an Attribute, not a skill so... I don't agree with everything Sean said. :) Attribute+Attribute as a resistance should be rare... like... only in the areas where having a dedicated skill makes no sense -- Perception, Feat of Strength, etc.

I've revised the skills a bit making Communication the social offensive skill and Steel a social (and mental) defensive one. So, most social/mental resistances would be Soc+Steel or WP+Steel.

Grettir wrote:
AA wants to pick the pockets of BB. AA has Agility 3 and Larcency 4, BB has Wits 3, Acumen 3 and Larceny 0. Should BB be allowed not to switch the lesser closer connected Attribute (Acumen) for Larcency and thus roll 6 dice (Wits 3 + Acumen 3) insted of 3 dice (Wits 3 + Larcency 0) in defence?

I don't think so, as I would consider this actually unfair to the skilled character. I would like to see the rule that if there is a Skill closer connected to the activity than another, second Attribute, the character has to use it in both "attack" and "defence", even if he does not have this Skill.
My reasoning is following.

Wits+Acumen is the default Perception formula. So, this is what get's used versus pickpocket, however, not all is screwed it you're a thief.

Just like the bored guard is not using his full attention at all the time, so doesn't the pickpocket victim. I'd rule that the bored guard would just roll his Wits as "passive" Perception. So, creating a distraction would also rob the thief victim from the Acumen part of the roll, but NOT if he also has a skill part which he can replace it. If you want to take the victim on with your pickpocket without some distraction or in a non-dozing state, you NEED the high skill to overcome the victim's Perception.

Does this make sense? Is it complicated?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:16 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Just like the bored guard is not using his full attention at all the time

The problem is that Wits+Acumen is the roll to see if he does pay attention. I would roll Wits+Acumen but then subtract a few dice for accidentals like being bored, distracted, etc. If the penalty is grave enough, it might come out to be the same numerically (Wits+Acumen -2 pretty much the same as just Wits). The difference is conceptually it is a lot simpler to understand: "I'm rolling A+B because this is that kind of check, but there some things that are hindering me so I'm subtracting dice as usual."

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:25 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
The problem is that Wits+Acumen is the roll to see if he does pay attention.
Nope, it's to see if he notices something. So, I'd have the bored guard roll Wits, but if he suspects something or the alarm is rung, that is bumped up to Wits+Acumen.

If you want to give me a -2 penalty, I'll argue that no, the duties are not all bad -- I'm -1 bored, not -2 bored. ;)

In my version, if you have Wits 2, Acumen 3 and Solider 1, then your dice pool is 3 when bored (lose Acumen, but can't lose skill) and 5 when full alert.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:41 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Just like the bored guard is not using his full attention at all the time, so doesn't the pickpocket victim. I'd rule that the bored guard would just roll his Wits as "passive" Perception. So, creating a distraction would also rob the thief victim from the Acumen part of the roll, but NOT if he also has a skill part which he can replace it. If you want to take the victim on with your pickpocket without some distraction or in a non-dozing state, you NEED the high skill to overcome the victim's Perception.

Does this make sense?

Makes sense, but is situational not applicable to all examples:

AA and BB both want to entice the same dog, equially strange to both of them, to come to them. AA has Social 3 and Animal Ken 2, BB has Social 3 and Animal Ken 0.

1) Referee asks for a contest of Social + Social, with the option of replacing one Social with Animal Ken. BB rolls 6 dice; AA could replace, for a total of 5 dice, but of course doesn’t and also rolls 6 dice. Two guys with equal attributes, one with a decent rating in highly pertinent skill, the other without that skill – but the skilled guy gets no benefit from his skill.

2) Referee demands the use of Social + Animal Ken in a contested roll. AA rolls 5 dice; lacking Animal Ken, BB replaces it with Social-1 and rolls 5 dice as well. Again, two guys with equal attributes, one with a decent rating in highly pertinent skill, the other without that skill – but the skilled guy gets no benefit from his skill. Again.

Wtf??? :roll:

Seanachai wrote:
The Pre-Alpha says when called on to make an Attribute + Skill roll a player can't substitute Skill for an attribute and suffers a -1 die penalty if he doesn't have the skill in question. This is like nWOD. So if I don't have larceny but am trying to pick a lock, I would have to roll Agility -1.

So:

AA:Agility 4, Larcency 2
BB: Agility 4, Larcency 0

AA’s Player: “I pick the lock!”
Referee: “Ok, you got Larcency?”
AA’s Player: “Sure, at 2.”
Referee: “I know that your Agility’s 4, so roll that plus Larcency, for a total of 6 dice.”
BB’s Player: “Just a sec. Why not doing it unskilled, with just Agility? You’d be better off that way!”
AA’s Player: “Course, you’re right! Ok, I’m doing this unskilled, at the default of Agility minus 1, for 7 dice.”
Referee: “Your guy’s skilled, you can’t roll unskilled – do you suppose he’s suddenly forgetting his knowledge ‘bout locks and stuff?”
AA’s Player: “But why did I bother developing Larcency at all if now I’m worse at illicit stuff than I was before???”
Referee: “Well, you see,- ”
BB’s Player: Ah, sod it, I’m picking it, Agility 4, no Larcency, so 7 dice, right?”
Referee: “Erm, yeah.”
AA’s Player: “Man, that sucks!”

You see? Allowing to roll Attribute-1 instead of a pertinent Skill would would mean that characters with an Attribute at least 2 higher than the Skill would be better off all the time just rolling unskilled. That’s not only making no sense, punishing the skilled, but also sends out all the wrong signals: “Just develop your Attributes and forget about the Skills”.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:24 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
1) Referee asks for a contest of Social + Social
I would use Attribute+Attribute only in the most natural abilities -- the ones EVERYONE have. Perception. Lifting. Immunity system.

Grettir wrote:
2) Referee demands the use of Social + Animal Ken in a contested roll. AA rolls 5 dice; lacking Animal Ken, BB replaces it with Social-1 and rolls 5 dice as well. Again, two guys with equal attributes, one with a decent rating in highly pertinent skill, the other without that skill – but the skilled guy gets no benefit from his skill. Again.
Um...

Social 3 + Animal Ken 2 = 5 dice
Social 3 - 1 (no skill) = 2 dice

No benefit?

Grettir wrote:
Referee: “I know that your Agility’s 4, so roll that plus Larcency, for a total of 6 dice.”
BB’s Player: “Just a sec. Why not doing it unskilled, with just Agility? You’d be better off that way!”
AA’s Player: “Course, you’re right! Ok, I’m doing this unskilled, at the default of Agility minus 1, for 7 dice.”
It's not Agility 4 + Agility 4 - 1 = 7
but Agility 4 - 1 = 3

Pre-Alpha wrote:
However, if the default dice pool is Attribute+Skill, the skill part can never be switched in favour of an attribute.
This means:
Player: "I don't have Larceny skill. Can I roll Agility+Wits instead?"
Referee: "Nope. It's just Agility -1 then, with the PAs on top of that."

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


Last edited by higgins on Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:48 pm 
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Ah, I misunderstood. As you’ve surely realized from my examples, I was under the impression that if Attr + Skill was called for and the character was lacking the Skill, he was allowed to roll Attr + pertinent Attr –1 instead.

Now I’m not sure if Attr-1 isn’t actually too harsh. But then, why not? With broad Skills, that’s not inapropriate, and should encourage players to develop Skills and not just Attributes.

higgins wrote:
I would use Attribute+Attribute only in the most natural abilities -- the ones EVERYONE have. Perception. Lifting. Immunity system.

Very good. And actually congruent with what I said in my first post: If there is a clearly applicable Skill, the referee will call for it, and it has to be used; if there isn’t but if the player can convincingly explain why one of his Skills should be applicable in the situation, he may substitute it for one of the Attributes. Cool with that. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:55 pm 
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At least the misunderstanding is cleared now. :) I edited a bit to add additional reasoning on that "can't switch skill out with attribute" in case you didn't see that one.

Grettir wrote:
Now I’m not sure if Attr-1 isn’t actually too harsh. But then, why not? With broad Skills, that’s not inapropriate, and should encourage players to develop Skills and not just Attributes.
Yup, it's harsh all right. Having no dot in a skill you need has to suck big time.

If Skill 0 was just 0, not -1, then Agility 4 Larceny 0 character would be equal to Agility 2 Larceny 2, and that's just too good IMO.

Also, it makes the initial skill purchase more valuable. It's easier to rely on talent (a.k.a. Attributes) if you have a basic skill to lean on.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:30 am 
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higgins wrote:
I would use Attribute+Attribute only in the most natural abilities -- the ones EVERYONE have. Perception. Lifting. Immunity system.

Right - which is why I started this thread. I wanted to get an idea of what some of these "natural abilities" might be.

higgins wrote:
]Yup, it's harsh all right. Having no dot in a skill you need has to suck big time.
But not as harsh as WOD that gives you -1 for lacking some skills, but up to -3 for lacking others.

So did you guys have any regular A+A rolls that should be jotted down "behind screen"?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:17 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
So did you guys have any regular A+A rolls that should be jotted down "behind screen"?
I can only think of:

Feat of Strength: Strength+Stamina
Immune system: Stamina+Willpower
Memory: Acumen+Wits
Perception: Wits+Acumen
Reflexes: Agility+Wits

and combat related:
Knock-Out: Stamina+Willpower (or Stamina+Strength)
Knock-Down: Strength+Agility

Everything else you lined out in the initial post seems like a skill uses to me.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:32 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Everything else you lined out in the initial post seems like a skill uses to me.
So for Sprint or Foot Chase, you would just use Athletics? Should someone really suffer -1 for not having studied how to run? Also, I think Empathy shouldn't have to be a skill roll. If someone has a skill, great, but they shouldn't be penalized for not having studied how to read people.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:07 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
So for Sprint or Foot Chase, you would just use Athletics? Should someone really suffer -1 for not having studied how to run?
My experience says that people with no training tend to... suck compared to the ones that train and run regularly. If the distance is very short, use Reflexes.

Seanachai wrote:
Also, I think Empathy shouldn't have to be a skill roll. If someone has a skill, great, but they shouldn't be penalized for not having studied how to read people.
If you want to explain your character as "someone who reads people well" give him high Wits and a dot in Communication. Nobody says the majority of the dice pool must come from the skill. Wits 4 Communication 0 character would have 3 dice... that's just like (average) Wits 2 Communication 1 character. I don't consider reading people something as natural an immune system for instance.

Also, I wouldn't become too attached to the notion of studying skills. No-one really studies to run, lie or be calm about things. Sure, it can probably be done, but most of the time people pick these things up doing what they do.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Regular A+A & A+S Rolls
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:39 pm 
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OK -Thread summary time. Here are some common Attribute + Attribute tests that might be listed in the document or on the back of the gamemaster's screen.

Quote:
Feat of Strength (Strength + Stamina): Using brawn to manipulate heavy objects or damage resilient objects. Breaking down a door, lifting a cart off someone.
Knockdown (Strength + Agility): Keeping your footing when something would push or pull you to the ground. Resisting a tripping maneuver, more examples?
Knockout (Stamina + Willpower): Remaining conscious...Resisting the effects of Strain, more examples?
Memory (Acumen + Willpower): Committing something to memory or recalling details.
Perception (Wits + Acumen): Noticing something in time to react.
Reflex (Wits + Agility): Reacting in time to a sudden surprise. Reaching for a object before it hits the ground, getting out of the way of a trap.
Resistance (Stamina + Willpower): Shaking off the effects of poison, disease, or other physical influence.

I appreciate help editing the descriptions and listing some examples. Thanks!

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