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 Post subject: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:24 am 
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In this thread I'm going to list the maneuvers chosen so far for EOS. I will be suggesting a few name-changes and argue for a few more additions to the list.

Pre-Alpha Document wrote:
...for the purposes of this playtest, we'll be using the proficiencies, maneuvers... from the TROS core book, with the following exceptions:
[*]Bash and Cut are unified into Swing. Adding more power to the blow is called a Hard Swing.
[*]Baiting rules are used instead of Stop Short maneuver.[/quote

OBaM p. 30 wrote:
Baiting
The (character) declares an attack. The opponent declares a defense. The attacking (character) now reveals its attack is a bait, spends one die to initiative this maneuver, and then may add additional dice on a one-for-one basis (unlike 2:1 in the case of a feint). If the defender wins, he takes iniative as normal. If the attacker wins, no damage is dealt bu the defender is considered to have "fallen for the bait" (let's change that to "have taken the bait" since that's the correct English idiom) and flinches away from the attack, receiving a CP penalty equal to the attacher's MOS at the start of the next exchange...


I'm assuming that EOS Bait maneuver is made available at Proficiency 3 since it's replacing Stop Short.

Can I suggest "Strike" instead of "Swing"? Minor detail, I know, but it's a closer translation IMO to the Kunst des fechtens and its "hauwen" (English would be a Hew, but that doesn't sound cool for a maneuver). Also, many of the other maneuvers have the word "strike" in them already.

The list for the playtest then includes...

Offensive Maneuvers
    Strike (Bash, Cut)
    Hard Strike (Bast, Cut) (perhaps "Wrath Strike" or "Rage Strike" for zornhau)
    Thrust
    Double Attack
    Beat
    Bind and Strike
    Evasive Attack
    Feint-and-Cut
    Feint-and-Thrust
    Grapple
    Half-Sword
    Hook
    Simultaneous Block-Strike
    Bait
    Toss
    Disarm
    Quick Draw
    Net Throw
    Shield Bash (Bucklers ATN6, Other ATN5)

    Defensive Maneuvers
    Full Evasion
    Partial Evasion
    Duck and Weave
    Block
    Block Open and Strike
    Counter
    Expulsion
    Grapple
    Half-Sword
    Parry
    Disarm
    Quick Draw
    Shield Wall

I'd like to also suggest renaming the evasion maneuvers to: Void(Full Evasion) and Fade (Partial Evasion) or else just Evade and Fade. It's shorter and also the English terms used in HEMA. Fade is usually used to refer to just moving a specific part of the body (arms, shoulders, hands) out of the way so you can follow up with an attack (so, a Partial Evasion), whereas voiding is what Full Evasion is - getting the hell out of the way. I wouldn't mind simplifying Duck-and-Weave to a one-word title as well. Suggestions?


Not Being Played
Unarmed Strike
Master Strike
Murder Stroke
Overrun
Rota
Twitch
Wind and Bind

The only ones I have some attachment to are Murder Stroke and Wind-and-Bind. Murder Stroke, or Mortstreich, is classic German fencing. I mean, c'mon, you're using your longsword like an axe to bash in an armored opponent's head. Why not have that!

Wind-and-Bind (Winden-Binden), I will admit, is one of the more complicated maneuvers described. But kunst des fechens is ALL about winden, the turning of the sword. In every spar I have participated in or watched and during every practice session, you have to wind past your opponent's attack in order to vor - gain the initiative - and end up with your sword in his face (another classic German technique :D ).

So if you want to remove Wind-Bind, let me ask that we please consider coming up with SOMETHING to handle this type of maneuver. It's different than the other countering attacks because, as described in TFoB, you can't make any Terrain Rolls or move really. Basically if you remove your blade from his, he's just going to follow through and stab you, so you have to find a way to attack him without separating blades.

By the way, I've been looking for cut-outs from the old fechtbucher to use as authentic medieval art for the EOS rulebook and I came across this cool site called "Higgins Armory Sword Guild". No relation, I assume. :D

http://www.higginssword.org/guild/study/index.html

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:43 am 
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Pre-Alpha Document wrote:
Baiting rules are used instead of Stop Short maneuver.


OBaM p. 30 wrote:
Baiting
The (character) declares an attack. The opponent declares a defense. The attacking (character) now reveals its attack is a bait, spends one die to initiative this maneuver, and then may add additional dice on a one-for-one basis (unlike 2:1 in the case of a feint). If the defender wins, he takes iniative as normal. If the attacker wins, no damage is dealt bu the defender is considered to have "fallen for the bait" (let's change that to "have taken the bait" since that's the correct English idiom) and flinches away from the attack, receiving a CP penalty equal to the attacher's MOS at the start of the next exchange...


Stop Short is a better manoeuvre than Baiting in terms of modeling this particular aspect of what actually happens in a duel.

In real life, your opponent is preparing to attack. You stamp your foot, as if launching a fleche. Your opponent's reflexes trigger and he defends with distance -- that is, backs up, losing his attack preparation. You don't gain any advantage -- you simply did nothing to defend, gaining yourself some time.

The Stop Short manoeuvre models this. Bait doesn't.

Personally I like Wind & Bind as much as I like Grapple. They're both systems within the system, and those players who are into it really get into it -- and those that don't, well, they don't.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:59 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Stop Short is a better manoeuvre than Baiting in terms of modeling this particular aspect of what actually happens in a duel. In real life...
The Stop Short manoeuvre models this. Bait doesn't.
That's true. There tends to be a lot of foot stamping in sparing.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Personally I like Wind & Bind ...They're both systems within the system, and those players who are into it really get into it -- and those that don't, well, they don't
Yay! I might still simplify the wording of Wind-and-Bind.

More cool pictures to see and steal: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_arms_gls.html

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:50 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
I'm assuming that EOS Bait maneuver is made available at Proficiency 3 since it's replacing Stop Short.
Yup.

Seanachai wrote:
Can I suggest "Strike" instead of "Swing"? Minor detail, I know, but it's a closer translation IMO to the Kunst des fechtens and its "hauwen" (English would be a Hew, but that doesn't sound cool for a maneuver). Also, many of the other maneuvers have the word "strike" in them already.
I thought strike was the general term... like...
Fruit: apple, pear
Strike: swing, thrust

Also that would imply that Simultaneous Block & Strike couldn't be used for thrusts. Sorry, jousters! :)

Seanachai wrote:
Hard Strike (Bast, Cut) (perhaps "Wrath Strike" or "Rage Strike" for zornhau)
I like "hard". Other seem to set limits on the frame of mind the attacker is in.

Seanachai wrote:
I'd like to also suggest renaming the evasion maneuvers to: Void(Full Evasion) and Fade (Partial Evasion) or else just Evade and Fade. It's shorter and also the English terms used in HEMA. Fade is usually used to refer to just moving a specific part of the body (arms, shoulders, hands) out of the way so you can follow up with an attack (so, a Partial Evasion), whereas voiding is what Full Evasion is - getting the hell out of the way.
For the final documents, that needs a vote, but please not now... or we end up not understanding each other like in case of "rounds". Even my Exchange->Phase suggestion led people to use both terms at once when speaking about it.

Seanachai wrote:
I wouldn't mind simplifying Duck-and-Weave to a one-word title as well. Suggestions?
If this helps:
Jake Norwood wrote:
The idea was to model the cinematic/risky practice of dodging in-and-under a blow, almost Matrix-style (but not as, well, fake). The Full Evade models getting way the heck back. The Partial Evade is dodging more or less in place, maintaining your position. The Duck-and-Weave is the “let’s see how close we can cut it” dodge, probably moving in toward the opponent.


Seanachai wrote:
The only ones I have some attachment to are Murder Stroke and Wind-and-Bind.
Actually I expected someone to speak up on this and I'm glad it's you -- someone with HEMA experience. The fact that you brought up only these two probably means I was going in the right direction. I'll need to take another look on the two.

Seanachai wrote:
"Higgins Armory Sword Guild". No relation, I assume. :D
I only wish. :(


Ian.Plumb wrote:
Stop Short is a better manoeuvre than Baiting in terms of modeling this particular aspect of what actually happens in a duel.

In real life, your opponent is preparing to attack. You stamp your foot, as if launching a fleche. Your opponent's reflexes trigger and he defends with distance -- that is, backs up, losing his attack preparation. You don't gain any advantage -- you simply did nothing to defend, gaining yourself some time.

The Stop Short manoeuvre models this. Bait doesn't.
Actually, the situation you describe isn't modelled by neither.

Your description seems to imply it's something like buying initiative -- declared by defender. While both Stop Short and Baiting are initiated by the offender and end up in the defender making a defense that's beyond useless, wasting the invested dice and possibly losing more from his reserve -- the only difference between the two is that Stop Short has a roll in it and Baiting doesn't. As Feint has no roll that would allow to detect it, I prefer Baiting.

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:00 pm 
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higgins wrote:
I thought strike was the general term... Also that would imply that Simultaneous Block & Strike couldn't be used for thrusts. Sorry, jousters! :)
Yeah, I guess Strike is more general, but Swing has a careless connotation to me. But agreed - we'll wait until the alpha document nomenclature thread.

higgins wrote:
I like "hard".
Speaking of connotations... :lol:

higgins wrote:
Actually I expected someone to speak up on this and I'm glad it's you -- someone with HEMA experience.
I've hardly got any HEMA experience! I only started about a month ago, but it's majorly cool and it looks like most of the manuals really just have a small set of techniques. The rest of it is just the "art".

Don't forget that the original creator of all those maneuvers, Jake, has LOTS of HEMA experience. I think what we're finding, though, is that Jake put them in because anyone crazy about HEMA would expect them. But from a game perspective, there's only so many variations on splitting your dice pool and getting bonuses to your next one.

I liked having all of them because it was fun to tell players, "You have like 60 weapons and more than 30 different maneuvers to choose from!" But you're right in that these other 4 or 5 maneuvers are modeled in the game as just more complicated versions of others:
    Master Strike is kind of like Simultaneous Block-Strike but it sounds cooler and is based on the theory behind the meisterhauwen (here's Jake's article on them by the way: http://www.thearma.org/essays/mastercuts.html)
    Overrun is some sort of Dodge-Attack, like Duck-and-Weave but with a lower TN and bonus dice instead of just initiative.
    Rota is kind of like counter but described like a wind (turning of sword over enemy's sword)
    Twitch is kind of like Double-Attack?

Now how I was going to run the game was to teach the common maneuvers before the game (the ones without Proficiency requirements) or as a "when you were a youth" scene and then teach them the uncommon ones in-game. I liked the dramatic tension of Twitch and Overrun ("Twitch!" "You got it, he blocks, though" "Twitch again!"; "He swings at you" "I jump forward in a mad rage - Overrun!") and eventually a player with the Prof 12 needs to be told, "You have learned Master Strike" because c'mon that's just really cool. I play a Chinese martial arts RPG with this group and they love it when we learn ultimate techniques - not because the rules are any more mature, but because it's described as ultimate.

Here's some crazy zornhau winding action! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjT4JepA-Vc

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:38 pm 
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I get that these maneuvers are unique in real life, but when it comes to the game-system application, all that's left is "It's like manuver X, but with different mechanics" and that's the level of detail I don't need.

And sure, I understand that Meisterhau is a legitimate technique (cool video, btw), but when you put it on paper, this sounds like "Yay, you finally reached prof 12! Now you can only be stopped by sim block/strike and fights with other prof 12+ guys have four exchanges instead of two."

Both of these things are IMO dead meat that have to be cut.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:32 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Both of these things are IMO dead meat that have to be cut.
I understand. With EOS we want to offer real choices for storytellers to use. At the same time, I think we agree that gaining access to new, powerful moves is a cool feature of any game. Do we want to re-scale this at all for EOS? Here's what we have currently:

Common Maneuvers (Begin play with...)

    Swing (Bash, Cut)
    Bind & Strike
    Block
    Counter
    Double Attack
    Duck & Weave
    Full Evasion
    Half-Sword
    Hook Trip
    Net Throw
    Partial Evasion
    Shield Wall
    Block & Strike
    Thrust
    Toss
    (Unarmed?)

Uncommon Maneuvers (Gain with proficiency requirement)

    Draw Cut (Prof 2)
    Grapple (Prof 3)
    Feint Thrust (Prof 3)
    Bait/Stop Short (Prof 3)

    Beat (Prof 4)
    Disarm (Prof 4)
    Feint Cut (Lv 5)
    Murder Stroke (Prof 5)

    Block Open Strike (Prof 6)
    Evasive Attack (Prof 6)
    Expulsion (Prof 6)
    Quick Draw (Prof 6)
    Wind & Bind (Prof 7)

A couple of observations:

1. The curve here is 0/1/3/2/2/4/1. I'd like to see that evened out a little more. Technically all common maneuvers are available at Prof 1 (16/1/3/2/2/4/1).
2. Feint Cut is more difficult to learn than Feint Thrust. I think that makes sense in real life. I just pulled off a really nice low Feint Thrust to almost win a sparring match the other night, but I really don't think I couldn't have followed up the feint with a cut. Still, why does it make sense game-wise to separate these? Are cuts "better" from a player's general strategy? It seems like it's usually going to be weapon-specific.
3. Do we really want Wind and Bind to be the most elusive maneuver? I definitely think it should be on the end of the curve (doing it right seems pretty hard), but if a player is fighting a master, I want them to think "Crap! He has a CP of 16, and he probably has a really tricky maneuver up his sleeve too!"

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
1. The curve here is 0/1/3/2/2/4/1. I'd like to see that evened out a little more. Technically all common maneuvers are available at Prof 1 (16/1/3/2/2/4/1).
Actually only Swing, Thrust, Block, Parry (this one you completely missed) & Evasions are the universal maneuvers. All else require proficiency 1 or higher. That said, you'd probably have a better idea than me how to better spread them out.

What's this "unarmed" maneuver you keep bringing up?

Seanachai wrote:
Still, why does it make sense game-wise to separate these? Are cuts "better" from a player's general strategy? It seems like it's usually going to be weapon-specific.
Excellent point. Should be put Feint on 3 (lower of the two) or 4 (average of the two)?

Seanachai wrote:
if a player is fighting a master, I want them to think "Crap! He has a CP of 16, and he probably has a really tricky maneuver up his sleeve too!"
I must admit I don't really have this maneuver fetish :lol: , nor do I particularly get it.

For me, the fighting master in EoS is someone who uses the maneuvers to beat his opponents, not someone in the possession of the Five Pointed Palm Exploding Heart Technique.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:24 pm 
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higgins wrote:
What's this "unarmed" maneuver you keep bringing up?
I just grabbed that from the Open Hand proficiency notes (TFoB p.80). It's kicks and punches.

Unarmed Strike wrote:

    The warrior uses his hands and feet to strike or parry strikes.
    Punch: Reach is Hand length. ATN 5, DTN 6, DR: ST -2b. Only thrusting attacks may be defended – otherwise take damage to deflecting limb.
    Kick: Reach is Hand. Open Hand kicks are Medium reach. ATN 7, DTN 8, DR: ST -1b. Only other kicking attacks may be defended – otherwise take damage to the deflecting limb. Kicking above waist level is uncommon and more difficult (+1 ATN).
    Bite (Beasts and monsters only): Reach is Hand. ATN 7, DR: ST -3b. Following a successful bite, the jaws may begin to crush, doing STb until the victim succeeds in a ST contest.
    Claw (Beasts and monsters only): Reach is Hand. ATN 6, DTN 6, DR: ST -3c, DR (Talon): ST -2c. Only thrusting attacks may be defended – otherwise take damage to the deflecting limb.


higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Still, why does it make sense game-wise to separate these? Are cuts "better" from a player's general strategy? It seems like it's usually going to be weapon-specific.
Excellent point. Should be put Feint on 3 (lower of the two) or 4 (average of the two)?
Hmm, I'd say 4, but I want to hear if anyone else wants to keep them separate.

higgins wrote:
I must admit I don't really have this maneuver fetish...not someone in the possession of the Five Pointed Palm Exploding Heart Technique
Haha, I do have that fetish, I guess. One thing I ask my players - though we never got around to it - was for them to think of moves they had and give them names. Did you ever read Wheel of Time? I loved how the sword moves were called things like, "Wading Through the Marsh" or "Crane Opens Wings". :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:41 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
What's this "unarmed" maneuver you keep bringing up?
I just grabbed that from the Open Hand proficiency notes (TFoB p.80). It's kicks and punches.
Ah, those same hand-foot-claw-teeth "weapon" TNs and DRs are in Core p.256 as well. So, with those weapons, one can use regular maneuvers (thrust, swing, etc). Nothing special. :)

Seanachai wrote:
Hmm, I'd say 4, but I want to hear if anyone else wants to keep them separate.
Sure, but your point about the "maneuver value" being "weapons specific" is IMO excellent. I'm adding "Feint & Cut + Feint & Thrust = Feint (still need to specify whether it ends up as swing or thrust; prof 4)" to the pre-alpa before I forget it. I can always remove it of anyone complains.

higgins wrote:
Did you ever read Wheel of Time? I loved how the sword moves were called things like, "Wading Through the Marsh" or "Crane Opens Wings". :roll:
Nope, but I've read the kingdom management system of Exalted. It had maneuvers like "Clever Monkey Scratches Its Ass While Elephant Watches From The Bushes" and then you scratch your head wondering what on earth that means.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:57 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Stop Short is a better manoeuvre than Baiting in terms of modeling this particular aspect of what actually happens in a duel.

In real life, your opponent is preparing to attack. You stamp your foot, as if launching a fleche. Your opponent's reflexes trigger and he defends with distance -- that is, backs up, losing his attack preparation. You don't gain any advantage -- you simply did nothing to defend, gaining yourself some time.

The Stop Short manoeuvre models this. Bait doesn't.


higgins wrote:
Actually, the situation you describe isn't modelled by neither.

Your description seems to imply it's something like buying initiative -- declared by defender. While both Stop Short and Baiting are initiated by the offender and end up in the defender making a defense that's beyond useless, wasting the invested dice and possibly losing more from his reserve -- the only difference between the two is that Stop Short has a roll in it and Baiting doesn't. As Feint has no roll that would allow to detect it, I prefer Baiting.


Actually it's used in the situation when the attacker only has a small number of dice left but wants to retain the Initiative after Refresh.

In this situation, if you simply perform an attack the defender, with more dice, will defend successfully and take the Initiative. So instead you Stop Short, take the Initiative contest outside the CP system and into a contested Attribute roll.

In other words, in real life, you have Initiative -- you can attack -- but doing so took a lot out of you. So you stop short, recover momentarily while your opponent reacts to the possibility of an all out attack, and then you attack. Or they spotted it for what it was and they attack.

With Bait, the attacker has to have the dice in reserve. That makes it a first exchange manoeuvre, like Feint. Stop Short is more versatile (though I will add that not many of my players have really understood when to use it).

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:29 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Actually it's used in the situation when the attacker only has a small number of dice left but wants to retain the Initiative after Refresh.
I know how the maneuver is used and this is the very reason I don't like it. Fact is, your opponent probably knows you're out of dice, so, what this maneuver essentially does is taking the decision out of the player's hands and saying: "Your character seems to think it's a real attack. There's nothing you can do about it."

What happened to the "player skills matters" philosophy? :|

P.S.
Am I to understand then that stomping one's foot in a duel would mostly happen when out of options and recovering? I'd imagined that it's common in the beginning of the bout -- no attack occurred, opponent off balance, follow up with real attack.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Actually it's used in the situation when the attacker only has a small number of dice left but wants to retain the Initiative after Refresh.


higgins wrote:
I know how the maneuver is used and this is the very reason I don't like it. Fact is, your opponent probably knows you're out of dice, so, what this maneuver essentially does is taking the decision out of the player's hands and saying: "Your character seems to think it's a real attack. There's nothing you can do about it."


:?:

Given I don't understand this reaction to it I'm guessing we play it differently. So let's work through an example of the manoeuvre.

Stop Short, TRoS Core, Page 63 wrote:
The maneuver's cost is variable. Roll a contest of the attacker's WP against the defender's Reflex. The attacker's TN is equal to his opponent's Per. The defender's TN is equal to 7 plus the number of dice that the attacker spent in executing the maneuver. This counts as an attack. If the defender wins, then he may take initiative normally. If the attacker wins, then his opponent loses a number of dice from his CP equal to the attacker's margin of success. This maneuver is really only effective once. Every additional attempt (whether the first was successful or not) cumulatively costs 1 extra CP die to the attacker.


So an NPC has 3 CP left going into the second Exchange and holds the Initiative. They call a Stop Short. The player doesn't bother calling a defense. The NPC uses all three dice. The NPC has a WP of 4 while the PC has a PER of 5. The player has a TN of 10 and a Reflex of 5 plus 5 points of SAs. The NPC rolls 2 Successes, the player rolls 1 Success. The player has a choice of flipping a Success by expending Luck, ensuring that the attacker doesn't win or he takes a 1 CP hit going into the next Round.

Alternatively, a PC is fighting a large monster. On the first Exchange he goes all in. The monster defends. The PC deals a level 2 wound. He has no dice for the second Exchange. Rather than relinquishing Initiative the player calls Stop Short. The PC has WP 6 plus 6 points of SAs against the monster's PER of 6. The monster has a Reflex of 6 against the base TN of 7. The PC gains 6 Successes, the monster 2 Successes, after refresh the monster loses 4 CP.

Is that how we all play it?

higgins wrote:
What happened to the "player skills matters" philosophy?


You only get to Stop Short once or perhaps twice in an entire combat. Knowing when to do it takes skill. In my experience few players use the manoeuvre -- because they don't see its value. That is, they don't know when to use it.

higgins wrote:
Am I to understand then that stomping one's foot in a duel would mostly happen when out of options and recovering? I'd imagined that it's common in the beginning of the bout -- no attack occurred, opponent off balance, follow up with real attack.


The whole stomping and shouting and changing guard position thing is all about making your opponent think that you're up to something. You want them to be thinking that you're doing something tricky -- especially when you aren't. For me, this is why the whole 1 second Round thing just doesn't work. A significant proportion of the time of a bout contains no offensive or defensive manoeuvring. Instead its about positioning -- even on a fencing piste where combat is virtually linear. I can imagine this only increases when you can circle your opponent or wind & bind, as in HEMA bouts.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Is that how we all play it?
Yes, but...

Ian.Plumb wrote:
So an NPC has 3 CP left going into the second Exchange and holds the Initiative.
Player: Hold on a sec, just thinking out loud here. I know he can't have more than a couple of dice left and I have plenty. Also, I'm feeling pretty confident in my maille. I would be a good move to ignore his attack and launch an attack of my own without buying initiative.
Referee: NPC performs the Stop Short maneuver.
Player: Like I needed more reasons for ignoring him... I'm going in!
Referee: Sorry, you have to win this contest versus impossible odds first. If he wins, your character thinks the fake attack is scary and loses some dice.
Player: Um... Why? What happened with making choices in combat and player skill mattering?
Referee: It's Stop Short. It's different.
Player: So, I need to succeed in a roll to see if he's faking it? Even though I know his attack will be puny at best?
Referee: That's right.
Player: Okay, but then next time someone makes a Feint, I want a roll too.
Referee: What for?
Player: To see if my character realises the other character is planning a feint. If I succeed, I want to adjust my defense dice accordingly.
Referee: Um... No, that's not how Feints work. Your character's perception matters only in Stop Short, not in other maneuvers.
Player: This makes no sense!

To summarise:
- all other maneuvers use the judgement of the player
- stop short uses the judgement of the character, and in doing so takes all fun out of the combat

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
A significant proportion of the time of a bout contains no offensive or defensive manoeuvring. Instead its about positioning -- even on a fencing piste where combat is virtually linear. I can imagine this only increases when you can circle your opponent or wind & bind, as in HEMA bouts.
I've only been sparring and watching bouts for a month, but there is an awful lot of circling, changing guards, stomping, and taunting before someone actually commits to an attack. That's probably because if it were TROS, it'd be over in one or two exchanges.

higgins wrote:
To summarise:
- all other maneuvers use the judgement of the player
- stop short uses the judgement of the character, and in doing so takes all fun out of the combat
I see Higgins's concern. But again this depends on whether we're looking at it from the PC or NPC's perspective. As a storyteller, I'll probably have NPCs make stupid mistakes all the time on purpose when their traits show they are undisciplined or untrained. So a PC calling a Stop Short on a NPC is no problem; it's just the other way around.

Would it be a compromise to say that when an NPC shouts Stop Short, he declares it as a cut or thrust, and after the PC declares defense or attack, it's announced to be a Stop Short.

Example: On Exchange 2 the NPC has the initiative.

NPC: He lunges forward at you suddenly, a wild look in his eyes. A 3-die thrust
to the head...
PC: 4-die parry!
NPC: ...as he thrusts forward, he stops short and stomps his foot. Roll your...

Example - Take two.

NPC: He lunges forward at you suddenly, a wild look in his eyes. A 3-die thrust
PC: Pff, he's bluffing or else I don't have to worry about it anyway. I steal the initiative and cut his head off!
NPC: ...as he thrusts forward he stop short and...

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