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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Would it be a compromise to say that when an NPC shouts Stop Short, he declares it as a cut or thrust, and after the PC declares defense or attack, it's announced to be a Stop Short.
Yes, in that case the maneuver would make sense. I still dislike the attribute tests however, which are completely unlike any other maneuver.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:07 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
So an NPC has 3 CP left going into the second Exchange and holds the Initiative.


higgins wrote:
Player: Hold on a sec, just thinking out loud here. I know he can't have more than a couple of dice left and I have plenty. Also, I'm feeling pretty confident in my maille. I would be a good move to ignore his attack and launch an attack of my own without buying initiative.


Referee: Hesitation! No action this Exchange! So the NPC performs a Stop Short...

higgins wrote:
Referee: NPC performs the Stop Short maneuver.
Player: Like I needed more reasons for ignoring him... I'm going in!


I am opposed to the idea that the character never does anything that the player doesn't want the character to do. Combat simply doesn't work that way in real life. You use your opponent's reflexes against them all the time.

higgins wrote:
To summarise:
- all other maneuvers use the judgement of the player
- stop short uses the judgement of the character, and in doing so takes all fun out of the combat


How else do you want to simulate the character having a reflexive reaction to events occurring in-game?

Referee: OK, it's night time but there's a small sconce near the doorway. Your crossbow is resting on the brickwork, aimed at the door. You know this beast has slaughtered your friends -- it is quick, it is deadly, it is a nightmare. Your hands start to shake -- you take a deep breath...

Player: What?

Referee: Your hands start to shake -- you take a deep breath...

Player: No. My character would never do that.

Referee: You've seen your friends disemboweled by this thing and it fed on their entrails -- while they were still alive. It is coming for you -- you are the last thing alive in this frozen outpost...

Player: Whatever. Jemima isn't nervous. That's outside my character concept.

Referee: OK, let's move on. As you wait, the door bursts open. Make a Reflex test, TN 6, 2 successes required to stop yourself from firing.

Player: I don't shoot.

Referee: No, you have to make the Reflex test. Jemima might just take the shot at the first possible instant, knowing that her life depends on nailing this thing before it gets to her.

Player: Nope. I've decided -- she waits to see what is coming through the door and then, maybe, I will shoot. An aimed shot. Right between the eyes.

Referee: I can see we're having trouble embracing the point of the scene. OK, the monster comes bounding through. Your one opportunity to shoot it is gone as you hesitate, trying to identify the target. It...

Player: I shoot it between the eyes.

Referee: ...launches itself at lightning speed...

Player: I shoot it between the eyes.

Referee: OK, you shoot it between the eyes. Roll your dice...

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Referee: Hesitation! No action this Exchange! So the NPC performs a Stop Short...
I thought I made it clear that this is what the player would normally think, instead of blabbering his intended tactics out. Point is, the player has a perfectly reasonable plan, an he is denied the use of maneuver. No other mechanic besides Stop Short ever does this.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
How else do you want to simulate the character having a reflexive reaction to events occurring in-game?
Feint accomplishes similar deception marvelously. If stop short requires spotting by the character, logically, so must feint. If feint is based on the judgement of the player, logically, so must stop short.

Seanachai wrote:
I've only been sparring and watching bouts for a month, but there is an awful lot of circling, changing guards, stomping, and taunting before someone actually commits to an attack. That's probably because if it were TROS, it'd be over in one or two exchanges.
You describe stomping as I imagined it -- mainly happening prior to committing the attack -- just like Baiting. Have you noticed any bouts where stomping is used to disengage for the purposes of recovering (as this is what TROS Stop Short models)?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:17 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
How else do you want to simulate the character having a reflexive reaction to events occurring in-game?


higgins wrote:
Feint accomplishes similar deception marvelously. If stop short requires spotting by the character, logically, so must feint. If feint is based on the judgement of the player, logically, so must stop short.


Actually, in my opinion Feint is a very poor example. If Feint actually worked, the attacker would declare their low value attack, the defender would declare their defense, the attacker would announce Feint and recommit their CP, and then the defender would make a Reflex test -- if successful, they would be free to adjust their defensive committment.

Seanachai wrote:
I've only been sparring and watching bouts for a month, but there is an awful lot of circling, changing guards, stomping, and taunting before someone actually commits to an attack. That's probably because if it were TROS, it'd be over in one or two exchanges.


higgins wrote:
You describe stomping as I imagined it -- mainly happening prior to committing the attack -- just like Baiting. Have you noticed any bouts where stomping is used to disengage for the purposes of recovering (as this is what TROS Stop Short models)?


A Stop Short is an actual fencing manoeuvre, used just as TRoS describes. When you are taught to fence you are taught to Stop Short just as you are taught to Fleche or use any other manoeuvre. Whether the mechanics model the manoeuvre well is always up for discussion but the intent of the manoeuvre is correct.

Bait on the other hand is a Feint that drains CP. It doesn't make sense, even if you like the mechanic.

But on the other hand I'm happy for Stop Short to go.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:23 am 
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higgins wrote:
You describe stomping as I imagined it -- mainly happening prior to committing the attack -- just like Baiting. Have you noticed any bouts where stomping is used to disengage for the purposes of recovering (as this is what TROS Stop Short models)?
No, but I'm sure the game's creator must have :D

To be fair, Ian has a good point. There are lots of games that have techniques which require opponents to have to make a "check" of some sort. You'll notice that there's cumulatively 1 extra CP die to the attacker every time he tries this against the same opponent. In other words, it gets harder to play this trick to death.

For the purposes of the playtest we could just include it and I - and whoever else is running this - can tell you how it plays out. If in the end you still don't like it, you can always just not make it available for your players.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:52 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
To be fair, Ian has a good point. There are lots of games that have techniques which require opponents to have to make a "check" of some sort.


Keep in mind I'm not advocating retaining Stop Short. I'm simply pointing out is a more realistic mechanic than Bait.

The issue I have is that if this is to be a combat system that emphasizes player tactics over CP size then you need to look at how your manoeuvre mechanics function.

As an example, if the PC is facing a big opponent and has to go all in just to have a chance of making some kind of wound, then the follow-up manoeuvre is Stop Short -- because it costs nothing and gives the player a chance of retaining Initiative into the first Exchange of the next Round. But we're dropping Stop Short in EoS -- so what manoeuvre should the player choose as the attacker who holds Initiative but 0 - 2 dice in the second Exchange -- while the defender holds a bucket of dice?

So when you are at a significant dice disadvantage, either as defender or attacker, which are the manoeuvres to pick to get you through to the end of the Round and thus Refresh?

My concern here is that EoS favours the larger CP far more than TRoS does. The adage that the experienced player with lower CP could beat the new player with larger CP held in TRoS -- but does it hold in EoS? If the manoeuvres favour large CP, if the clever manoeuvres rely on 2:1 CP trades, then I think we've strayed. But if that's not a concern, then that's fine by me too.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:18 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Actually, in my opinion Feint is a very poor example. If Feint actually worked, the attacker would declare their low value attack, the defender would declare their defense, the attacker would announce Feint and recommit their CP, and then the defender would make a Reflex test -- if successful, they would be free to adjust their defensive committment.
IMO that would take all fun out of the feint, as again, the mechanic would target the character.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
But on the other hand I'm happy for Stop Short to go.
You mean have it removed?

Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
You describe stomping as I imagined it -- mainly happening prior to committing the attack -- just like Baiting. Have you noticed any bouts where stomping is used to disengage for the purposes of recovering (as this is what TROS Stop Short models)?
No, but I'm sure the game's creator must have :D
Stop Short works roughly like baiting in the 1st Exchange -- you use it, other guy loses dice, then you go in. It could just be a refresh bug, that it works better in a 2nd exchange. Only Jake knows what he intended with it.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
Keep in mind I'm not advocating retaining Stop Short. I'm simply pointing out is a more realistic mechanic than Bait.
I understand that feints would be more realistic with some roll in them to determine the opponents intention, as would Stop Short... but that's how every other simmy game would do this. For me, it's not the proficiencies or maneuvers that make combat system fun. It's the fact that my own judgement is used.

I remember D&D 3e had a mechanic called sneak attack that allowed rogues to deal a great number of damage if the target was unaware. Then some guy (perhaps it was me, don't rightly recall) found a feat in some sourcebook that allowed the rogue to make a Bluff check during combat which had to be resisted by Sense Motive. If rogue wins, he can use his sneak attack, which increased the damage rogue would do four-fold or more, depending on his level. Point was, most fighting type characters didn't have access to the Sense Motive skill, and so, of course they always failed the sense motive checks, especially as Bluff skill is the one that is most easily boosted up in D&D if you have a social character. So, we had this "maneuver" that only social type characters were able to counter at some level and it was not fun. However, the reason wasn't that the maneuver was powerful (rogues had other chances to use that ability in combat as well), but because a roll with an impossible difficulty was required from the victim -- which he would of course fail and suffer the consequences every bloody time. IMO the only difference between Stop Short and this bluff attack is that Stop Short has an increasing cost.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
My concern here is that EoS favours the larger CP far more than TRoS does. The adage that the experienced player with lower CP could beat the new player with larger CP held in TRoS -- but does it hold in EoS? If the manoeuvres favour large CP, if the clever manoeuvres rely on 2:1 CP trades, then I think we've strayed. But if that's not a concern, then that's fine by me too.
Buying initiative and feint were just as expensive in TROS. I'm just objecting the "Get Out of Jail Free" card.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
So when you are at a significant dice disadvantage, either as defender or attacker, which are the manoeuvres to pick to get you through to the end of the Round and thus Refresh?
I would recommend using your best defense. For me, Stop Short as in core is a big "F** You!" card that can be smacked at any defender that has jut barely survived an all out attack and wants to pay the reckless attacker his due.

...which reminds me. We went through a huge pain to model buying initiative in a way that would make it viable in both exchanges... and through that, make the both exchanges as identical as possible. Will this "best in 2nd exchange" maneuver not be contrary to the goals? Perhaps I am looking at this issue with "gamist fairness" in mind, but I don't want a complete oddball in a set of solid maneuvers....

What did you think of Sean's compromise, btw?

Seanachai wrote:
Would it be a compromise to say that when an NPC shouts Stop Short, he declares it as a cut or thrust, and after the PC declares defense or attack, it's announced to be a Stop Short.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:08 am 
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higgins wrote:
What did you think of Sean's compromise, btw?


Seanachai wrote:
Would it be a compromise to say that when an NPC shouts Stop Short, he declares it as a cut or thrust, and after the PC declares defense or attack, it's announced to be a Stop Short.


Two points:

1) As I've said, I'm happy for Stop Short to be removed from the system.

2) In order to work out what I'll think of any compromise, all you have to do is run it through this simple test: As the attacker put one or two dice into it when the defender has many dice. If the attacker has a reasonable chance of winning, then I might go for it.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:41 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
1) As I've said, I'm happy for Stop Short to be removed from the system.
Removing the maneuver isn't my goal, getting rid of the oddball mechanic is.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
2) In order to work out what I'll think of any compromise, all you have to do is run it through this simple test: As the attacker put one or two dice into it when the defender has many dice. If the attacker has a reasonable chance of winning, then I might go for it.
Depends what you define as winning. If the opponent sees your puny attack as threatening and defends instead of going offensive and cutting your head off, I'd define it as a win -- the character has survived a situation versus overwhelming odds. When your opponent is armoured, you just have to be smarter -- make your attack in a vulnerable place so that he can't ignore it -- force him to defend. Then say -- "HA! Stop Short, your defense dice are wasted, I keep initiative, refresh".

If you object this by saying "Baiting rules say the attacker must win the contest to keep initiative" then... Thing is -- I don't care about that. In fact I must admit I completely missed that tiny detail. The attack-defend mechanic and the added dice option could be there just to see if the defender loses any dice by being duped like that. I only care about the fact that the player would be duped by making the choice to defend by himself, and not having that forced upon him by the mechanics.

In summary, I'd be completely happy with the following mechanics:
Quote:
Stop Short (Off.)

Activation Cost: 1*

Prereq: Proficiency level 3.

Procedure: Attack as normal without declaring stop short. After your opponent’s defense is declared but before dice are rolled, declare stop short. Pay the activation cost and roll your remaining dice for the fake attack. Opponent defends as normal.

If attacker is successful, no damage is done, but the defender loses MoS worth of dice in the next Exchange. If defender is successful he will not lose any additional dice. The attacker always keeps initiative.

Note: You may increase the dice in your fake attack by spending dice from your unallocated CP (1:1 ratio).

* + 1 activation cost/each additional time used against the same opponent

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:10 pm 
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I think I could be happy with that modification - at least so we can move on to the playtest and see how it really works in battle! :D

Do we need to discuss Bait or leave it as is? If we're happy, then this thread is finished for now. Moving on!

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:33 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Do we need to discuss Bait or leave it as is? If we're happy, then this thread is finished for now. Moving on!
I think the new proposed mechanic covers both Baiting and Stop Short grounds while being based on the player decision. I'm just waiting for Ian's opinion. Then we could indeed move on to making the maneuver spread more even and also I doscovered a difference in feints -- the thrust version is good vs parries only.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:54 pm 
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Just to clarify:

Player 1: Three dice left. OK, I'll thrust to face as he has no helmet with my last few dice.
Player 2: Block Open and Strike -- 9 dice.
Player 1: Stop Short! Hah! I retain Initiative into the next Round.
Player 2: OK -- 3 dice into the Block, 6 dice into the attack.

What happens?

As I've said -- I really don't mind whether you get rid of Stop Short and just use Bait, or you get rid of Bait and keep Stop Short, or whatever. It's time to move on.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Player 1: Three dice left. OK, I'll thrust to face as he has no helmet with my last few dice.
Player 2: Block Open and Strike -- 9 dice.
Player 1: Stop Short! Hah! I retain Initiative into the next Round.
Player 2: OK -- 3 dice into the Block, 6 dice into the attack.

What happens?
As Block Open and Strike works over two exchanges, I assume you mean Simultaneous Block and Strike?

First off, the stop short would be announced AFTER the block&strike dice are allocated.

But I'd say... that Stop Short works less than well versus that one -- the attacker had committed an offensive anyway.
- attacker's "fake" thrust and defenders block have a contest (3 vs. 3)
- any MoS by attacker is subtracted from the committed attack pool of 6 dice
- the remaining attack is resolved
- if successful in his attack, I think it would make sense that the initiative would be kept by the block&strike guy

In summary, Stop Short is more useful in situations where your opponent has only one weapon.

Realistic? No?

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:09 am 
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higgins wrote:
But I'd say... that Stop Short works less than well versus that one -- the attacker had committed an offensive anyway.
- attacker's "fake" thrust and defenders block have a contest (3 vs. 3)
- any MoS by attacker is subtracted from the committed attack pool of 6 dice
- the remaining attack is resolved
- if successful in his attack, I think it would make sense that the initiative would be kept by the block&strike guy


Fine by me. Same thing for Bait?

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Maneuvers
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:42 am 
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I'm figuring both Baiting and Stop Short would be replaced by this maneuver as it covers both grounds. I'll need to figure that sim block/strike exception in there somewhere... but, yes, same for both.

Quote:
Stop Short (Off.)

Activation Cost: 1*

Prereq: Proficiency level 3.

Procedure: Attack as normal without declaring stop short. After your opponent’s defense is declared but before dice are rolled, pay the activation cost and declare stop short. If the opponent's maneuver has no offensive part in it, it can be ignored and you keep the initiative without harming anyone.

Note: Instead of simply ignoring the defense, you may demand a normal attack-defend contest to see if your opponent is thrown off guard. Doing so, you have the option to increase the dice in your fake attack by spending dice from your unallocated CP (1:1 ratio). Opponent defends as normal.

If attacker is successful, still no damage is done, but the defender loses MoS worth of dice in the next Exchange. If defender is successful he will not lose any additional dice. Initiative is handled like above.

If the opponent's maneuver has and offensive part in it, stop short makes him lose MoS worth of dice from his committed attack instead. That attack is resolved after stop short and the opponent keeps the initiative instead.

* + 1 activation cost/each additional time used against the same opponent


Perhaps we should call it "Stomping" to differentiate from the other two it replaces?

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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