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 Post subject: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:47 pm 
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TROS allowed you to use certain skills in combat to gain the upperhand. The following is my condensed version of the rules. These originally had dynamic TNs for the agent and the patient. This might be a little clunky. Should we keep the dynamic TNs or set up difficulties? Thoughts?

Skills in Combat wrote:
These tests can only usually occur in the pauses between rounds when the characters have a chance to size up their opponent and make comments. Using skills in combat during pauses has no activation cost. Using it while engaged in an exchange carries an activation cost of 1 CP.

Intimidating is a psychological tactic used to weaken an opponent’s resolve.

  • Contest: WP/Athletics: Intimidation or similar skill vs. WP or WIT/TN6. There are several situations which may grant either side an Edge. Outnumbering a wounded foe, for example, should grant a Bonus (+1) or Advantage (+2).
  • Success: The losing opponent suffers -1 CP for each MOS or may flee or surrender immediately (MOS 3+). The CP penalty lasts until the opponent lands a damaging blow against the intimidating character.
  • Failure: The character may not attempt another intimidation against this opponent until the situation changes dramatically.

Taunting is the last resort of a fighter who is tired of circling and defending. One can force his opponent into becoming an attacker – i.e. throwing red at the start of the next round.

  • Contest: The taunter rolls SOC or WIT/Etiquette: Ridicule, Taunting or other appropriate skill vs his opponent who rolls WP/TN6 or TN7 if the ridicule is insightful. If the taunting is well played or takes appropriate advantage of his Gifts, Flaws, or Spiritual Attributes, the TN is raised to 8.
  • Success: The character has successfully brought out his foe’s ire. He will almost certainly attack in the next exchange.
  • Failure: The opponent is unaffected by the character’s ridicule.
  • Botch: The character has himself become frustrated. He must attack or lose a Drama point. A player character who was the target of taunting and who has failed his WP contest may spend Drama or an appropriate SA to keep his cool. Doing so may inadvertently cause the taunter to lose his cool and throw red himself at the start of the next round.

Style analysis is the technique of determining important insight about one’s opponent through body language.

  • The character makes a PER challenge.
    o TN6: Opponent is using the same proficiency or style.
    o TN7: Opponent is using a familiar proficiency or style.
    o TN8: Opponent is using an unfamiliar proficiency or style.
  • Success:
    o MOS 1: Whether the opponent is favoring, familiar with his held weapon, or holding back.
    o MOS 3: What zones the opponent is favoring, how experienced he is with his held weapon, how much CP he is holding back, and how much Pain is affecting him.
    o MOS 5: How many dice he has favored with, his Combat Pool total, which maneuver he will probably try next.

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"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:32 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Should we keep the dynamic TNs or set up difficulties?
Dynamic TNs, no. What are set up difficulties?

Skills in Combat wrote:
Success: The losing opponent suffers -1 CP for each MOS or may flee or surrender immediately (MOS 3+). The CP penalty lasts until the opponent lands a damaging blow against the intimidating character.
Underline mine. What's the reasoning? Getting wounded gives a morale boost? :)

Seanachai wrote:
MOS 5: How many dice he has favored with, his Combat Pool total, which maneuver he will probably try next.
Underline mine. That one will probably work less than well PC vs PC. Also, it's important only when you hold initiative, right? :) Otherwise you'll know soon enough :P

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"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:09 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Should we keep the dynamic TNs or set up difficulties?
Dynamic TNs, no. What are set up difficulties?
I mean like, instead of saying TN8 to identify an unfamiliar style, Difficulty 3.

higgins wrote:
Skills in Combat wrote:
Success: The losing opponent suffers -1 CP for each MOS or may flee or surrender immediately (MOS 3+). The CP penalty lasts until the opponent lands a damaging blow against the intimidating character.
Underline mine. What's the reasoning? Getting wounded gives a morale boost? :)
That's what I assume. You're terrified of your opponent until you see he can bleed too.

higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
MOS 5: How many dice he has favored with, his Combat Pool total, which maneuver he will probably try next.
Underline mine. That one will probably work less than well PC vs PC. Also, it's important only when you hold initiative, right? :) Otherwise you'll know soon enough :P
If you know how many dice he has left and what he's going to do next but don't have initiative, you could favor an area, decide to steal initiative, etc. MOS5 is a pretty big deal, especially if we say you have to overcome a difficulty is 1-3. With that should they get more? What might that be?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:05 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Should we keep the dynamic TNs or set up difficulties?
Dynamic TNs, no. What are set up difficulties?
I mean like, instead of saying TN8 to identify an unfamiliar style, Difficulty 3.
In addition to roll being opposed then? It's a whole lot of rolls... :) I guess that's why I never used these rules.

Seanachai wrote:
That's what I assume. You're terrified of your opponent until you see he can bleed too.
Oops, sorry. I somehow read "against the intimidatED character".

Seanachai wrote:
MOS5 is a pretty big deal, especially if we say you have to overcome a difficulty is 1-3. With that should they get more? What might that be?
I guess my point is the other way around. You do this in very specific circumstances and by adding a considerable rules bulk. It also decreases the player skill vs. player skill aspect.

In summary, I don't think I'd mind to see these options go for standard combat.

Perhaps they could be in the optional rules expansion like favouring and zone CP modifiers (the one's in core p. 234), for those people who feel that the base combat rules aren't complete or simmy enough.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:19 pm 
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higgins wrote:
In addition to roll being opposed then?
You'll notice that Style Analysis is not a contest.

higgins wrote:
In summary, I don't think I'd mind to see these options go for standard combat...Perhaps they could be in the optional rules expansion like favouring and zone CP modifiers (the one's in core p. 234), for those people who feel that the base combat rules aren't complete or simmy enough.
I never used the zone cp modifiers, and my players never tried the favoring even though I did teach it to them. Beginning players had to much to think about. I did like the level of mind game that favoring brought.

Back the point at hand - I think there needs to be something for Taunting since white/white forever is no fun. Intimidate is also useful from a story perspective so that players can try to end a fight sooner without having to take a life or do serious damage.

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"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
In addition to roll being opposed then?
You'll notice that Style Analysis is not a contest.
The sillier it is IMO. Imagine two characters making unopposed Style Analysis contests and then both know beforehand how the other allocates...?

Seanachai wrote:
I never used the zone cp modifiers, and my players never tried the favoring even though I did teach it to them. Beginning players had to much to think about. I did like the level of mind game that favoring brought.
Sounds like optional category to me. :)

Seanachai wrote:
Back the point at hand - I think there needs to be something for Taunting since white/white forever is no fun. Intimidate is also useful from a story perspective so that players can try to end a fight sooner without having to take a life or do serious damage.
Sure, but your description makes them seem very rules heavy. Let's try something simpler.

Taunting: Social+Communication vs Willpower+Steel. Winner achieves his goal.

Intimidation is tougher to pin down, as the possible benefit accounts from minor wound to instant victory. Allowing such rule would mean that most combats would be intimidation contests. Say...

Intimidation: Social (or Strength) + Communication. Base difficulty is opponent's Willpower OR Steel (whichever is higher). Any MoS beyond that makes opponent suffer -1 CP or may flee or surrender immediately (MoS 5+).

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:07 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Sounds like optional category to me. :)
Let's be honest: All rules are optional because all rules are just what we offer the players.

higgins wrote:
Sure, but your description makes them seem very rules heavy. Let's try something simpler.
Agreed! Like I said, this was old TROS.

higgins wrote:
Taunting: Social+Communication vs Willpower+Steel. Winner achieves his goal.
Sure - and I imagine there might be a possible Ridicule specialty, too. :-)

higgins wrote:
Intimidation: Social (or Strength) + Communication. Base difficulty is opponent's Willpower OR Steel (whichever is higher). Any MoS beyond that makes opponent suffer -1 CP or may flee or surrender immediately (MoS 5+).
It's interesting that you proposed this approach of Difficulty = opponent's trait. I think there should be some effect for MOS 0 and some sort of bonus for having an opponent already wounded or in otherwise dire straits. This works for PC vs NPC, but will NPCs ever use this against PCs? If so, should players be allowed to roll this as a contest?

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"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
It's interesting that you proposed this approach of Difficulty = opponent's trait.
It felt too powerful otherwise. I'd actually rather limited the use of this than handling it via difficulty, but demanding PA point for activation seemed too expensive and I didn't come up with anything better.

Idea: perhaps this option should only be available to characters with notorious reputation (as per Flaw)? It would both limit it's use and make it always relevant.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:03 pm 
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higgins wrote:
(RE: Taunting) It felt too powerful otherwise... Idea: perhaps this option should only be available to characters with notorious reputation (as per Flaw)? It would both limit it's use and make it always relevant.
Yeah, the original wording was to give bonuses if the taunter used the victim's PAs or Flaws against him. We could just make that the requirement.

For Intimidating, the requirement could be that something is significantly in their favor: (a) they have wounded the victim significantly (Level 2+ or 3+), (b) they have them outnumbered, etc. If the player disagrees about whether the condition is significant, the ST can just apply a -1 or -2 dice penalty.

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"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Should work.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Skills in Combat
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:12 pm 
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Taunting Example

Blaine the ne'er-do-well thief has found himself surrounded by guards in the duke's mansion. The duke's men-at-arms are nameless hired henchmen with no PA/SAs.

GM: Duke Aspwood's men continue circle you, their blades drawn. They don't seem to have appreciated you waking them up.
Blaine: Ha ha! We've been throwing white/white for three refreshes now, but I really want to make sure I can say the duke's men were the first to start this. . . I taunt them!
GM: ...OK, what exactly do you say?
Blaine: Oh, you know, the usual derogatory remarks about their lineage...
GM: OK, you do so, and you can tell that the guards are no happier with you after the nasty comments - but they aren't going to be swayed into starting a fight on just name-calling.
Blaine: Shoot...Anything else I can do?
GM: Well, you can always spend a Point to change the scene to something more fitting.
Blaine: ...Oh, yeah, I could spend a Point to establish that a love letter falls out one of their pockets. I could taunt them about that, right?
GM: Sure, I'd allow it. Spend a Point and I'll effectively give one of the guards a PA you could exploit.
Blaine: That'd be fun, but I'm running low on Points. I think I'll just gut the bastards and lie about it later. I throw red!

Later on that evening...

GM: ...as you come around the corner you almost run into Gerrard, the duke's closest friend.
Blaine: Oh, I hate that guy!
GM: (later)...another white/white. You two are circling each other still. He makes a comment about how poor you look.
Blaine: "Well, pints of your men's blood will do that to one's clothing..."
GM: He grimaces but holds his guard.
Blaine: Damn...Oh wait, I remember he seemed pretty dedicated to Asswood --
GM: -- Aspwood!
Blaine: -- so he probably has some sort of PA level dedication to the guy. OK, I taunt him saying, "You better get out of my way, Gerry. My sword and I have a date with your dearest duke.."
GM: OK, go ahead and roll the taunt....Success. Gerrard raises his blade into falcon stance and charges.
Blaine: Ha ha! Time to show him what a counter is all about!

_________________
"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


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