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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:03 am 
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simon burling wrote:
Am I correct in assuming that the S under Where should be a G.

I also agree that grappling is broken if you need a 2 to 1 ratio to have any realistic chance of succeeding.


You are correct. I will fix my post.

higgins wrote:
I don't get it. In a normal attack, none of the spent dice carry over to the next exchange, so, how is this only 50% a major problem?


The problem isn't that only 50% of dice dedicated to the aggressor's grab carry over. The problem is that 100% of the dice not dedicated by the defender carry over. Because there is no incentive to dedicate dice to the defense of a grab, the aggressor is penalized in proportion to how many more dice he dedicates than the defender in ADDITION to the reach and activation costs.

In order to incentivize spending dice on a defense of the grab, you should increase the TN of defending against traps and throws to 8. This will make the advantage to saving dice on the grab to be statistically insignificant (dice value of aggressor 25% versus defender value of 30% if all dice dedicated to grab in exchange 1). As it stands if all dice are dedicated to grab, dice value is 25% vs. 50%. AC and reach further penalize the aggressor.

I have no problem with the AC cost. I personally reduced all maneuvers besides grab to AC 0, but that is just preference of how much of a talent advantage to succeed that I think needs to be modeled and not a broken mechanic.

Having the grab TN equal to other TNs is a broken mechanic. Once players figure out that they can dedicate 0 dice to defending a grab, it will be impossible to grapple them successully.


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Puppet wrote:
there is no incentive to dedicate dice to the defense of a grab
How does your group generally use grabs? This is my perspective:

1) Grab works the best if the one character is armed an other is unarmed/disarmed.
2) By grabbing the armed opponent, the use of his weapon is most likely denied -- this is by far the greatest benefit for the grabber.
3) This means the main incentive to resist a grab is to maintain the use of the weapon as well as the reach advantage.

Is your group attempting to accomplish something different with grabs? Or you're having different expectations?

Puppet wrote:
In order to incentivize spending dice on a defense of the grab, you should increase the TN of defending against traps and throws to 8.
I still don't get this. If the problem lies with Grab (and with offensive grab only, never defensive), then why do you keep suggesting I should change the other maneuvers instead?

Puppet wrote:
Having the grab TN equal to other TNs is a broken mechanic. Once players figure out that they can dedicate 0 dice to defending a grab, it will be impossible to grapple them successully.
If defender allocates 0 dice, then the offensive grab isn't resisted and it is successful (unless offender rolls up 0 successes). The defender loses a few dice and is denied the use of his weapon if it's larger than a dagger (even without a hold maneuver, he can't basically use it). So, you're saying that your testing shows that this by itself comes short as a reward for succeeding a maneuver, as by using 0 dice, the defender will remain at disproportionate dice pool advantage in the grapple? I think this is what you mean, but I want to be sure.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:22 am 
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Puppet wrote:
there is no incentive to dedicate dice to the defense of a grab


higgins wrote:
How does your group generally use grabs? This is my perspective:

1) Grab works the best if the one character is armed an other is unarmed/disarmed.
2) By grabbing the armed opponent, the use of his weapon is most likely denied -- this is by far the greatest benefit for the grabber.
3) This means the main incentive to resist a grab is to maintain the use of the weapon as well as the reach advantage.

Is your group attempting to accomplish something different with grabs? Or you're having different expectations?


While this might happen I would say that the more common usage is two unarmed opponents. Next most common would be grappling an opponent who is in better armour (that is, both armed). After that would come responding to being disarmed.

Puppet wrote:
In order to incentivize spending dice on a defense of the grab, you should increase the TN of defending against traps and throws to 8.


higgins wrote:
I still don't get this. If the problem lies with Grab (and with offensive grab only, never defensive), then why do you keep suggesting I should change the other maneuvers instead?


Because the problem can be addressed in the second Exchange.

At the moment, no damage is taken when a grab is put on. So there's no reason to defend against it (as in, you won't get hurt by it).

In the second Exchange, when the attacker is trying to throw or whatever, the defender has their full CP (as they did not allocate dice to defense in the first Exchange) while the attacker has a much reduced CP (as they had to pay an AC as well as allocate dice to the grab in the first Exchange).

As the TN of the defender's manoeurvre is the same as the attackert's they will always win on the second Exchange.

There are two ways to solve this:

1) Include a rule which says that a grab does cause damage based on MoS. This would prevent defenders from allocating 0 or low dice to defend against a grab.

2) Raise the TN of defensive manoeuvres that are used when an opponent has a hold on the character. If the TN of defensive manoeuvres is +2 when the attacker already has a hold then it wouldn't matter if the defender was at full CP -- they would still struggle to defend against the attacking manoeuvre.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:13 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Because the problem can be addressed in the second Exchange.
It can't. This fix assumes too many things:

1) It assumes that grab can happen in 1st Exchange only. What if it happens in 2nd? Even if the defender doesn't use his dice, he loses them anyway, grab is successful, refresh occurs, now both have full CP and the defender is at some ridiculous TN disadvantage.
2) It assumes that all grabs are offensive. Defensive grabs simply don't have that "zero defense" issue. As such, changing the follow up maneuvers doesn't make sense, as they can happen after defensive grabs as well.
3) It assumes that just some of the grapple maneuvers deserve "good odds". Changing just Trap and Throw would mean that character still has bad odds for Snap and Strangle.

Edited for clarity.

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:11 am 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
Because the problem can be addressed in the second Exchange.


higgins wrote:
It can't.


So it can't be fixed...?

higgins wrote:
1) It assumes that grab can happen in 1st Exchange only. What if it happens in 2nd? Even if the defender doesn't use his dice, he loses them anyway, grab is successful, refresh occurs, now both have full CP and the defender is at some ridiculous TN disadvantage.


Why would the defender not use his dice in the second Exchange?

If the attacker grabs on the second Exchange, then after refresh he gains bonus dice from the successful grab, and thus his CP is higher than normal...?

higgins wrote:
2) It assumes that all grabs are offensive. Defensive grabs simply don't have that "zero defense" issue. As such, changing the follow up maneuvers doesn't make sense, as they can happen after defensive grabs as well.


OK.

higgins wrote:
3) It assumes that just some of the grapple maneuvers deserve "good odds". Changing just Trap and Throw would mean that character still has bad odds for Snap and Strangle.


Then change all of the TNs -- I mean something has to be done as the results are clearly anomalous as they stand.

Personally I think the issue goes away if the initial grab does damage when the defender puts up no resistance.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Ian is correct on all points. I want to agree with Higgins that in the current system, defensive grabs and grabs initiated on the second exchange are not broken. They are not broken because in both situations it is either impossible or obviously disadvantageous to not dedicate dice to the defense of the grab.

If you really don't believe me, you can skype me at Puppet-san. I'm a nice guy and play using EoS on skype and irl twice a week now. It is an excellent system and I really appreciate the effort Higgins put into compiled it. You can be a master Judouka with 20CP. I'll be an average Ashigaru with a katana and 10CP. I will show you that I can defend your grapple or cut off your hand exactly 50% of the time (I'd think Japan's best Judouka could handle an Ashigaru). Give me 14 CP and I can almost guarantee one or the other.

Higgins makes a few points.

higgins wrote:
How does your group generally use grabs? This is my perspective:

1) Grab works the best if the one character is armed an other is unarmed/disarmed.
2) By grabbing the armed opponent, the use of his weapon is most likely denied -- this is by far the greatest benefit for the grabber.
3) This means the main incentive to resist a grab is to maintain the use of the weapon as well as the reach advantage.


1) Because of the lethality of parry vs grab, you can only successfully grapple an armed opponent *50%* of the time if you have more than double their CP. I demonstrated this with math and have not been refuted. The current system makes grabbing an armed opponent the last thing you want to do.
2) His weapon is only denied until he breaks the grapple (putting you back where you started) or reverses the grapple (incredibly easy because as I made a point of admitting in my first post that defensive grappling is NOT broken!)
3) That is only the incentive for short-sighted new players. A real veteran would think more than 1 exchange ahead. You can maintain reach and use of your weapon by breaking the grapple in exchange 2. If the defender has more than half the attacker's CP, he will ALWAYS be able to manipulate the dice to have a greater than 50% chance to 1, cut off a hand or 2, reverse the grapple in his favor.

higgins wrote:
Puppet wrote:
In order to incentivize spending dice on a defense of the grab, you should increase the TN of defending against traps and throws to 8.
I still don't get this. If the problem lies with Grab (and with offensive grab only, never defensive), then why do you keep suggesting I should change the other maneuvers instead?


There is no other way to fix this problem. It is true that you could make the grab do damage as Ian says, but even Ian doesn't think that's a good solution. Because this fix doesn't break anything else and only makes the defensive rules slightly more complicated and without it offensive grapples in exchange 1 are impossible, you should implement it.

Another fix would be to disallow offensive grabs. But that would just be polite. My players found out in about 20 minutes never to use offensive grabs because they get you slaughtered. Banning them would just protect the new players from accidentally using them.

higgins wrote:
If defender allocates 0 dice, then the offensive grab isn't resisted and it is successful (unless offender rolls up 0 successes). The defender loses a few dice and is denied the use of his weapon if it's larger than a dagger (even without a hold maneuver, he can't basically use it). So, you're saying that your testing shows that this by itself comes short as a reward for succeeding a maneuver, as by using 0 dice, the defender will remain at disproportionate dice pool advantage in the grapple? I think this is what you mean, but I want to be sure.


Yes. In the following exchange, the defender will win hands down unless the aggressor has at least double his CP.

Losing use of your weapon is incentive to not be successfully grappled. It is not incentive to dedicate dice to defending a grab; it is incentive to dedicate 0 dice to defending a grab. By letting your opponent grab you (provided they dedicated less dice than your total CP pool), you stand the best chance of winning the grapple and maintaining use of your weapon.

This can be fixed by increasing the defense of throws and traps to TN 8.

higgins wrote:
1) It assumes that grab can happen in 1st Exchange only. What if it happens in 2nd? Even if the defender doesn't use his dice, he loses them anyway, grab is successful, refresh occurs, now both have full CP and the defender is at some ridiculous TN disadvantage.


The 2nd exchange has incentive to defend the grab. The incentive is you will lose the dice. No one will not dedicate their dice to defending a grab in the second exchange. As it stands, however, grabbing on the second exchange will always result in the follow-up at a minor disadvantage because the aggressor will suffer imperfect information unless he has a 2+ CP advantage.

In any case, your system will ALWAYS put the offender at a disadvantage, whether insurmountably in the first exchange or minorly in the second exchange, and it will never put him at an advantage unless he has a very large CP advantage (more than is reasonably simulated by an AC cost).

You can fix the 2nd exchange grab disadvantage like the first exchange disadvantage. Increase Throw and Trap defense TN to 8.

higgins wrote:
) It assumes that all grabs are offensive. Defensive grabs simply don't have that "zero defense" issue. As such, changing the follow up maneuvers doesn't make sense, as they can happen after defensive grabs as well.


But changing the follow-up maneuvers don't break defensive grabs. It makes them a little more dangerous, sure, but that's because you aren't adding a reach penalty to defensive grabs like they did in TRoS (do you think you're grabbing the sword by the blade on the defense but his arm on the offense...?). It fixes offensive grabs. TN 8 break vs. Throw and trap didn't break either in original TRoS, and it won't in EoS either. However, NOT doing it makes these rules unusuable offensively because there is never a situation where it will result in good odds. It is mathematically impossible to break 50% odds until you have at least twice your opponent's CP.

higgins wrote:
3) It assumes that just some of the grapple maneuvers deserve "good odds". Changing just Trap and Throw would mean that character still has bad odds for Snap and Strangle.


I addressed the reasoning at length in a previous post. I expand on it here.

I don't think Strangle is all that benefited from a good opening grip like trap and throw are, and would understand if saving dice let you better resist getting your throat slowly choked. I believe the same of defending against strikes. A well-positioned grab should get you in there, but it shouldn't make defending against a knife incredibly difficult. I didn't know you could snap at TN 6 following a grab. If so, you should change that to TN 9, because having it lower than trap makes trap useless.


Let me try changing my argument. I don't think I can express the absolute need for this fix to your system any more clearly. If you don't want to fix grabbing, why not....

REMOVE GRABBING?

If you are so against giving different grappling maneuvers different odds following grab, what in god's name is the point of grab? You could achieve the exact same probability curve by making throw, trap, snap, and strangle normal maneuvers with an AC cost and reach penalties and get rid of grab all together. This would also fix offensive grapples. THE ONLY PURPOSE OF GRAB IS TO SIMULATE GRABBING. Instead of rolling two exchanges at TN 6 to figure out if you throw, trap, or one-round choke a person, just roll one exchange at TN 6 to figure out if you throw, trap, or one-exchange choke a person. Either one gives the defender the advantage of perfect information, so there is literally NO problem getting rid of grab altogether. Your current system only simulates grabs halfway on defenses and none on defenses. It fails simulation and fails to be a fun game mechanic to boot because you can *NEVER* grab offensively with advantage. Playing a monk is like playing Russian Roulette with four out of six bullets in the gun!



It would be very easy for you to remove grab. It would make grapples resolve faster, not change the probability curves of your system in any significant way, and would make it easier for noobs to grapple and prevent skilled players from automatically winning. The only downsides are it no longer simulates grabbing and you would not be able to strike.

OR

You could fix your system by:

Increasing the defense of Trap and Throw to TN 8.

You could make your system PERFECTLY balanced by decreasing grab TN and defense against grab TN to 5.

Leave all other maneuvers at 6. Or increase Snap to TN 9 if you allow it without trap.


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Funny example.

21 CP Judouka trying to grab a 10 CP longswordsman on exchange 1 and throw or trap on exchange 2 has exactly a 50% chance of success.

If he wanted to rip out the longswordsman heart with 7 MoS (a level 5 wound with fists) at ATN 5 he would have a 51.63% chance. But is definitely going to get at least a level 1 wound.

I do not believe offensive grappling should be more difficult than ripping out a man's heart. But under your system it is.

I can't calculate it because I don't how to add the KD check to the summation, but the success chance of disarm is dramatically higher than ripping out someone's heart. Around 80%.

Just change the TN to 8 and fix your system...


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:31 pm 
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I gotta say that Puppet's suggestions make sense to me, especially the TN fix sounds pretty reasonable tbh.

Perhaps not a static TN 8, though, but rather a rule that goes "for every two successes on the grapple, the TN for [those specified maneuvers we're talking about] is raised by 1 point".
Would that be incentive enough to invest at least a few dice into defense against the original grappling attempt?


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:03 pm 
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Auburney wrote:
I gotta say that Puppet's suggestions make sense to me, especially the TN fix sounds pretty reasonable tbh.


To me, once an opponent has grappled you successfully and established a hold you are in trouble. You have two choces at that point: break the opponent's hold or establish your own hold (in order to prevent your opponent exploiting their hold).

Defending the initial grapple should be significantly easier than defending against an exploit (which is always conducted from a position of advantage -- that is, a hold has already been established on the defender). Personally I prefer the idea that the TN rises than the attacker gets a bonus as this better portrays what is happening (that is, it is harder for the defender to defend, not easier for the attacker to attack).

So I would get rid of the attacker's bonus dice, but raise the defender's manoeuvre TNs when the manoeuvre is being attempted from a position of disadvantage.

The outcome that simply has to happen is that it must be in the defender's best interests to defend against that initial grapple attempt.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Exactly. From what (admittedly limited) knowledge I have about real life grappling-type combat, it should go according to the rationale of "prevent being grabbed while it is still easy to do so, or live with the added complications of then having to either break free, or counter-grapple, or resist whatever the grappler is subsequently trying to do to you (such as throw, choke, etc.)"

All of these "added complications" should be more challenging to achieve than initially avoiding the original grapple should be, imo.

It's your own fault for letting the guy get a grip on you in the first place, after all. So that would feel justified to me...


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