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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:11 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Lock
Strangling
Break Free attempt
Stamina roll
Break Free attempt
Stamina roll -1
Break Free attempt
Stamina roll -2


I'm assuming that's

Exchange 1: Strangle vs Break Free
Exchange 2: Break Free vs ???, Stamina Roll
Refresh
Exchange 1: Break Free vs ??, Stamina -1 Roll
Exchange 2: Break Free vs ??, Stamina -2 Roll
Refresh, etc...

That's a lot of rolling of dice. We'll deal with that in a second...

Issue 1: The Lock

  • TN is 6.
  • Difficulty is a Contest against opponent's Reversal or Break maneuver.
  • The MOS results in either (a) "Shock" to the opponent, (b) bonus to Feat of Strength strangle roll, (d) indicator of what got locked

Issue 2: The Choke/Strangle.
  • TN is 6.
  • Difficulty is either (a) Opponent stamina value; (b) a Contest against opponent's Reversal or Break maneuver.
  • The MOS results in either (a) "Shock" to the opponent or (b) a penalty to "stay awake" roll

Issue 3: Break Free vs ???
What is attacker rolling against opponent's Break Free attempt? If he's rolling another Strangle, should there be an activation cost? It seems that he's really just not doing anything, but I don't really want to make a maneuver called "Maintain Grip Activation Cost 0".

If we want the victim to be rolling to "hold their breath", we should also consider simplifying this so that it's the same thing that they do to it for swimming or other situations.

My feeling is that Lock is Contested with MOS being Shock, making it harder for the opponent to break the lock. We need to then decide if the Strangle will be handled with Combat Pool and Maneuvers or with Attribute tests (Feat of Strength vs Stamina Difficulty or Contest). Either way, I would just want it to be one successful roll on the part of the strangler. A failed roll by the strangler means the bout continues with Combat Pools and exchanges.

For snapping bones, I think it should be handled similar to Strange where a successful Lock makes an Attribute contest possible. I'll need to think about how we inflict Pain or Shock with broken bones (wound table has 8-10 pain for most broken arms and legs).

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:24 pm 
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And this is how the grappling rules got complicated once again. :lol:

Just a couple of things, as I'm not able to chew through this at the moment.

I intended one "stay awake" roll per refresh, possibly being rolled at the same time with the refresh to simplify things. I also assumed that people tend to go all out with break free pools when strangled.

Why not oppose break free with lock?

Seanachai wrote:
If we want the victim to be rolling to "hold their breath", we should also consider simplifying this so that it's the same thing that they do to it for swimming or other situations.
It is the same thing that they do... People rolls Stamina+Willpower to keep conciousness (former KO). With arteries sealed, this becomes infinitely harder -- only the most relevant attribute is rolled, not unlike a passive perception roll or bleeding.

Seanachai wrote:
Either way, I would just want it to be one successful roll on the part of the strangler. A failed roll by the strangler means the bout continues with Combat Pools and exchanges.
So if the PC gets hands around his neck and one successful roll is performed by the attacker, then it's all over for him? A bit of anti-climatic IMO.

Seanachai wrote:
For snapping bones, I think it should be handled similar to Strange where a successful Lock makes an Attribute contest possible. I'll need to think about how we inflict Pain or Shock with broken bones (wound table has 8-10 pain for most broken arms and legs).
I think that's a good way to do breaks.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:08 am 
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higgins wrote:
Why not oppose break free with lock?
OK. Activation cost each time. I guess if it's after a refresh that's OK, but if it's going to be in the second exchange, one will have to be careful to hold back enough dice.

higgins wrote:
It is the same thing that they do... People rolls Stamina+Willpower to keep consciousness (former KO). With arteries sealed, this becomes infinitely harder -- only the most relevant attribute is rolled, not unlike a passive perception roll or bleeding.
Players roll half a pool for passive perception?

higgins wrote:
So if the PC gets hands around his neck and one successful roll is performed by the attacker, then it's all over for him? A bit of anti-climatic IMO.
I mean that the Strangle is happening with just one roll. What happens after that is still up for discussion. I roll ONCE to get someone in a strangle. Whatever a strangle does to a person starts to happen without more rolls having to be made. If that's a counter that starts before you get knocked out or whatever, it doesn't need more rolling. Any more rolls after this is your trying to get away.

higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
For snapping bones, I think it should be handled similar to Strange where a successful Lock makes an Attribute contest possible. I'll need to think about how we inflict Pain or Shock with broken bones (wound table has 8-10 pain for most broken arms and legs).
I think that's a good way to do breaks.
OK - we'll go with that for now, but we still have to figure out out to relate snap bone MOS with how wounds are inflicted. Do we want it to be a simple MOS = Pain type formula or do we want MOS = Wound Level (no soaking anything)?

If the latter, at what side of the roll (before or after) is it decided what's getting snapped/locked?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:31 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
Why not oppose break free with lock?
OK. Activation cost each time. I guess if it's after a refresh that's OK, but if it's going to be in the second exchange, one will have to be careful to hold back enough dice.
What does the activation cost in lock represent, btw?

Seanachai wrote:
Players roll half a pool for passive perception?
We went over this here: viewtopic.php?p=9613#p9613

Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
So if the PC gets hands around his neck and one successful roll is performed by the attacker, then it's all over for him? A bit of anti-climatic IMO.
I mean that the Strangle is happening with just one roll. What happens after that is still up for discussion. I roll ONCE to get someone in a strangle. Whatever a strangle does to a person starts to happen without more rolls having to be made. If that's a counter that starts before you get knocked out or whatever, it doesn't need more rolling. Any more rolls after this is your trying to get away.
But how do you determine how many tries the character has before losing conciousness?

Seanachai wrote:
OK - we'll go with that for now, but we still have to figure out out to relate snap bone MOS with how wounds are inflicted. Do we want it to be a simple MOS = Pain type formula or do we want MOS = Wound Level (no soaking anything)?
I must admit my ignorance in this topic, but I guess it would make sense that some breaks are worse than others...?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:18 pm 
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higgins wrote:
What does the activation cost in lock represent, btw?
Activation costs always mean that what you're doing is more complicated and requires more effort, right? I imagine it would be the same here. If you want to drop the activation cost for this maneuver because - unlike other maneuvers - it requires a successful use of another maneuver (Grab), I could follow that argument, but then the same could be said of Strangle/Choke and Snap since those require a successful Lock.

higgins wrote:
We went over this here: viewtopic.php?p=9613#p9613
I see you bring it up, but I'm still a little fuzzy on how to distinguish "active" versus "passive". I always assumed passive defenses meant one only person (the agent) was rolling.

higgins wrote:
But how do you determine how many tries the character has before losing consciousness?
I don't know yet. This has yet to be determined. The "simplest" would be to just say "You've got your Stamina in rounds/refreshes, etc". What would raise the dramatic tension for players?

higgins wrote:
I must admit my ignorance in this topic, but I guess it would make sense that some breaks are worse than others...?
I haven't snapped anyone's bones lately either :D but I'm going to say yes. TROS already gives a higher rating of pain and shock for broken legs, and a broken neck is instant (though not very messy) death.

The maneuvers Lock and Choke/Strangle shouldn't require the player to "call shots". We've abstracted out the old clunk of this by simply using MOS as Shock. High MOS can be described fittingly.

For Snap, though, it does seem to matter which part of the body the agent is targeting. Let's assume that for snapping bones and joints the real-life difficulty and payoff would be: HAND < ARM < LEG/KNEE < NECK. Let's also assume that a bone is a bone, and it doesn't matter what your Stamina is. If your arm is completely locked, you're not able to resist how it's going to be bent. You can try to break out, but that's what the dwindling Combat Pool is for.

We could then say that Snapping happens directly after a successful Lock maneuver. It is a Feat of Strength test.

    HAND: Difficulty 1
    ARM: Difficulty 2
    LEG/KNEE: Difficulty 3
    NECK: Difficulty 4

If successful, the patient suffers a broken bone or sprained joint. From the Wound Tables that means:

    Broken Hand: Shock 7, Pain 7-WP. Instantly drop hand-held items.
    Broken Arm: Shock 7, Pain 8-WP. Instantly drop hand-held items. May not use arm.
    Broken Leg/Knee: Shock 10, Pain 10-WP. Roll "Knockdown" -5.
    Broken Neck: Instant death

If a player fails their Feat of Strength test in this attempt, we could say that nothing happens or that the patient just suffers Shock equal to the number of successes since even trying to break someone's arm is going to inflict some serious, although temporary, pain.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
We went over this here: viewtopic.php?p=9613#p9613
I see you bring it up, but I'm still a little fuzzy on how to distinguish "active" versus "passive". I always assumed passive defenses meant one only person (the agent) was rolling.
I admit having used this term confusingly. I'll try to think of something when I find time to compose the next edition of pre-alpha.

Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
But how do you determine how many tries the character has before losing consciousness?
I don't know yet. This has yet to be determined. The "simplest" would be to just say "You've got your Stamina in rounds/refreshes, etc". What would raise the dramatic tension for players?
That was my first instinct as well, but knowing exactly how long it is didn't suit me very well. So, I proposed making rolls for it.

Seanachai wrote:
For Snap, though, it does seem to matter which part of the body the agent is targeting. Let's assume that for snapping bones and joints the real-life difficulty and payoff would be: HAND < ARM < LEG/KNEE < NECK. Let's also assume that a bone is a bone, and it doesn't matter what your Stamina is. If your arm is completely locked, you're not able to resist how it's going to be bent. You can try to break out, but that's what the dwindling Combat Pool is for.

We could then say that Snapping happens directly after a successful Lock maneuver. It is a Feat of Strength test.

    HAND: Difficulty 1
    ARM: Difficulty 2
    LEG/KNEE: Difficulty 3
    NECK: Difficulty 4

If successful, the patient suffers a broken bone or sprained joint. From the Wound Tables that means:

    Broken Hand: Shock 7, Pain 7-WP. Instantly drop hand-held items.
    Broken Arm: Shock 7, Pain 8-WP. Instantly drop hand-held items. May not use arm.
    Broken Leg/Knee: Shock 10, Pain 10-WP. Roll "Knockdown" -5.
    Broken Neck: Instant death

If a player fails their Feat of Strength test in this attempt, we could say that nothing happens or that the patient just suffers Shock equal to the number of successes since even trying to break someone's arm is going to inflict some serious, although temporary, pain.
That's pretty good, I think. I agree that snapping a finger should be easier than snapping a leg. I have some doubts about neck difficulty though... it's most lethal, that's for sure, but is it harder than breaking a leg?

What if... in case of snapping, instead of feat of strength, the character would need to divide his pool between pinning/snapping? Blargh, it was just a thought and it gets complicated! :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:52 pm 
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higgins wrote:
That's pretty good, I think. I agree that snapping a finger should be easier than snapping a leg. I have some doubts about neck difficulty though... it's most lethal, that's for sure, but is it harder than breaking a leg?

What if... in case of snapping, instead of feat of strength, the character would need to divide his pool between pinning/snapping? Blargh, it was just a thought and it gets complicated! :)
Haha...The simulationist temptations creep in. I agree, snapping a neck that you have in a solid pin may or may not be more difficult (I'd rather not try this out), but I think my focus has never been on realism. Realism is a guiding factor only so long as it's intuitive for the player and not too inconvenient for the game. So I think that from a narrative-gamey point of view, getting an instant kill through something as "barbaric" as snapping a man's neck with your hands should be a "bigger deal" than bending his arm behind his back till it dislocates.

I'm not married to these difficulties, though. I was just suggesting something so we can start to bring this to a close.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:52 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Haha...The simulationist temptations creep in.
There's a fine line between simulationism and common sense. :) It was just something I'd see some of my players picking on.

But... when will the Feat of Strength be possible of we speak of the mechanical side of things? On the next exchange after the successful lock? Just before the refresh? I mean, with split dice pools handling the "break maneuver", that issue would resolve itself by default.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:42 pm 
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higgins wrote:
But... when will the Feat of Strength be possible of we speak of the mechanical side of things? On the next exchange after the successful lock? Just before the refresh?
My instinct is to say immediately after a successful Lock. When I grab your arm to pin it, breaking it is part of that movement. If I'm unsuccessful then I'm hanging there for a moment and giving you a chance to break free of the grapple.

Refresh
Exchange 1:
    Albert attempts to Lock Blaine's arm; Blaine rolls to break free.
    Albert wins and makes a Feat of Strength to see if he's strong enough to dislocate the arm. Albert fails.
Exchange 2:
    Albert still has initiative and wants to maintain the Lock. He rolls against Blaine's reversal.
    Blaine wins and gains the initiative and MOS bonus to next exchange
Refresh

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:09 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
My instinct is to say immediately after a successful Lock.
But then the "poop, he's going to break my arm unless I turn the momentum" moment only occurs when the first attempt of breaking has failed? This moment is IMO always stressed in literature. I can't recall a single instance where it's plain lock-snap, with the (main) character unable to respond.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 3:42 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
My instinct is to say immediately after a successful Lock.
But then the "poop, he's going to break my arm unless I turn the momentum" moment only occurs when the first attempt of breaking has failed? This moment is IMO always stressed in literature. I can't recall a single instance where it's plain lock-snap, with the (main) character unable to respond.
The character is responding when he's trying to stop the guy from behind his arm behind his back in the first place! Seeing this as one action: "I'm trying to break your arm by locking it in an unnatural place and you're trying to stop me" removes that annoying "grapple hole" that is present in other RPGs. Remember 3.5? You kept rolling to move further into different states of grapple. If we adopt this, instead, we won't have that:

1. We're grappling or not.
2. If grappling I can try to break your bone or choke you.

As opposed to:

1. We're grappling or not.
2. If grappling we're either in a lock or not.
3. If in a lock I can .....

The MOS=Shock thing still abstractly represents the struggle of having someone attempt to pull your arm all the way back.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:31 pm 
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I think it's time for a recap? :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:00 am 
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Higgins - Here's where I think we're at. If I didn't see you raising a point after I addressed it, I assumed you were OK with where it was. Either way, there are still some things to think about and test. For example, we haven't really figured out what "Knockdown"/Sure-Footed means yet. You'll notice I put that in italics.

Proposed Wrestling Recap

Two combatants face each other. They have only one goal: to dispatch the other as fast as possible.

KAMPFRINGEN

In armed combat it is sometimes advantageous to use one's speed and strength to grapple an opponent. Warriors may attempt to subdue and immobilize their foe or they may wish to inflict pain by snapping joints or strangling them into unconsciousness. In EOS this is handed through a set of maneuvers in the Wrestling Proficiency.

Grabbing

Every proficiency has a Grab Maneuver with an activation cost of 2 and TN6. The Grab Maneuver requires one free hand. In this offensive or defensive maneuver the warrior attempts to grab his opponent's sword arm or hand to initiate a grapple. The warrior suffers any length penalties as usual unless he is currently in a Bind with his opponent.

A failed Grab might result in a limb being parried. In this case, the arm suffers the wound (MOS+DR). A failed Grab due to Evasion just results in the two combatants at Melee (Partial Evade) or Close (Full Evade) range and the bout continues as usual. On a successful Grab, the winner gains the initiative and the MOS as bonus dice to the next exchange. The winner may then decide to begin wrestling.

Wrestling

Wrestling uses the Wrestling Proficiency and cannot be used with any weapons longer than small blades such as daggers and knives. While wrestling the following maneuvers are available:

Offensive Maneuvers

  • Grab (Cost 2): The warriors reaches out to grab his opponent's sword hand or arm in order to start a wrestling match. In a successful grab, the initiative is passed to the defender along with the MOS for use in the next exchange.
  • Cut (Cost 0): The warrior uses his knife or other small blade to slash at his opponent. He uses the weapon's ATN.
  • Stab (Cost 0): The warrior uses his knife or other small blade to stab at his opponent. He uses the weapon's ATN.
  • Strike (Cost 0): The fighter punches or kicks his opponent (MOS+ST) on the head, torso, or arms.
  • Throw (Cost 1): The fighter attempts to throw his opponent over his hip or shoulder to the ground. The victim suffers Shock equal to the MOS.
  • Lock (Cost 2): The fighter tries to immobilize his opponent by locking the head, legs, or arms.The victim suffers Shock equal to the MOS. In addition, with a successful lock, the warrior may attempt a Feat of Strength (Strength + Stamina) during the exchange to bend and break his opponent's arm, leg, or neck. The difficulty of this test is the opponent's Stamina. The difficulty depends on the targeted part of the body. If successful, the patient suffers a broken bone or sprained joint.

    HAND: Difficulty 1
  • Broken Hand: Shock 7, Pain 7-WP. Instantly drop hand-held items.]
    ARM: Difficulty 2
  • Broken Arm: Shock 7, Pain 8-WP. Instantly drop hand-held items. May not use arm.
    LEG/KNEE: Difficulty 3
  • Broken Leg/Knee: Shock 10, Pain 10-WP. Roll "Knockdown" -5.
    NECK: Difficulty 4
  • Broken Neck: Instant death

Alternatively, after a successful lock, the warrior may announce he is trying to choke or strangle his opponent. This is also a Feat of Strength against a difficulty of Stamina with bonus dice awarded for any rope or other strangling tool he may have. The victim suffers MOS as Shock. If this drops his Combat Pool to 0, he falls unconscious. Continuing the choke or strangle for another minute results in the victim's death.

Defensive Maneuvers

  • Reverse (Cost 2): Attempts to reverse the momentum of the grapple to his favor. In a successful reversal, the initiative is passed to the defender along with the MOS as bonus dice in the next exchange.
  • Break (Cost 0): The warrior attempts to break free of the grapple. A successful break-free, like an evasion, causes a pause in combat. In a tie the aggressor retains the initiative but is unsuccessful in his technique.

Fatigue

Wrestling an opponent requires a constant expenditure of strength and energy. Storytellers are encouraged to call for frequent Fatigue tests at increasing difficulties.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:36 am 
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In a multiple opponent situation, what happens if the PC grapples with one of the NPCs? What happens if an NPC grabs the PC?

What happens if that initial grab takes place on terrain that normally requires a terrain roll to attack on?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:18 pm 
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I like what I see! It's straightforward and cinematic. I have just three points.
Seanachai wrote:
    HAND: Difficulty 1
  • Broken Hand: Shock 7, Pain 7-WP. Instantly drop hand-held items.
    ARM: Difficulty 2
  • Broken Arm: Shock 7, Pain 8-WP. Instantly drop hand-held items. May not use arm.
    LEG/KNEE: Difficulty 3
  • Broken Leg/Knee: Shock 10, Pain 10-WP. Roll "Knockdown" -5.
    NECK: Difficulty 4
  • Broken Neck: Instant death
This is pretty cool however, I don't think the static difficulties represent the different possible positions very well. It may be the simulationist creeping in again, but I thought it would be cool to roll a random element into the grapple, much like in case of counter. Say, roll a d10 on a table and result is: "You got his leg in an advantageous position. Break difficulty -1."

Sure it's another step, but I think it would be cool. I mean, otherwise everybody would go for the hand break as it's the easiest despite how the guys are positioned. Another way would be to handle such things a'la favouring. Setting some dice aside to get double value for breaking the next exchange. Just tossing ideas.

Seanachai wrote:
Alternatively, after a successful lock, the warrior may announce he is trying to choke or strangle his opponent. This is also a Feat of Strength against a difficulty of Stamina with bonus dice awarded for any rope or other strangling tool he may have. The victim suffers MOS as Shock. If this drops his Combat Pool to 0, he falls unconscious. Continuing the choke or strangle for another minute results in the victim's death.
I'm not happy with these rules yet. Basing unconciousness on CP 0 makes the results exchange dependent. My preference would be to have the choker mainain the lock until the victim passes out. To reduce the rolling, perhaps, yes, we could use "counters" instead, so...

After a lock, there's a roll:
- Strength+Stamina for plain ol' choking. If more successes than victims Stamina, windpipe breaks. If windpipe holds, he needs the victim locked his Stamina refreshes for unconciousness (same mechanic for keeping head under water except no windpipe crush danger).
- Strength+Medicine for squeezing shut arteries. If successful, victim drops unconscious next refresh.

Also, how would this two guys with one gun/dagger rolling on the ground thing resolve?

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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