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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:39 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Sure it's another step, but I think it would be cool.
It's a little crunchy for me, but hey that's what gray sidebars called "Optional" are for, right? :D

higgins wrote:
After a lock, there's a roll:
- Strength+Stamina for plain ol' choking. If more successes than victims Stamina, windpipe breaks. If windpipe holds, he needs the victim locked his Stamina refreshes for unconciousness (same mechanic for keeping head under water except no windpipe crush danger).
I like the use of Medicine. There might be specializations in other skills (Thievery?) that could also be used. I don't understand the underlined part, though. What does "..he needs the victim locked his stamina refreshes for unconsciousness" mean? Do you mean after CPs refresh X number of times, he falls unconscious, where X equals his stamina? I prefer counters over lots of rolls, but I'm not sure this is necessary. If I didn't close the windpipe this exchange, I will have a greater chance next time already because of the Shock inflicted. Everything is being represented in the rules: Stamina for difficulty (or TN?) and wrestling proficiency (which I assume includes how not to get knocked out) by way of Combat Pool. This would also have the uncertainty you wanted since it's still based on dice rolling.

higgins wrote:
Also, how would this two guys with one gun/dagger rolling on the ground thing resolve?
Grabbing objects during any combat is a Terrain roll type of a thing, right? If we're in a grapple and I want to move us closer to something or farther from something, I might just use the Pressing terrain mechanic or something like it.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
In a multiple opponent situation, what happens if the PC grapples with one of the NPCs? What happens if an NPC grabs the PC?p
Interesting. I was trying to see if 1 vs 1 would work first. My first instinct is to never re-invent the wheel, so Terrain rolls would still be in play here. A successful one would let the player just focus on one opponent. Once he's grappling though, I would imagine it'd be difficult for him to move quickly enough, but could Blaine grapple in such a way as to keep Gerrard in front of him so the duke's guards can't run him through without risking their captain's life? Terrain rolls while grappling pose new questions.

Ian.Plumb wrote:
What happens if that initial grab takes place on terrain that normally requires a terrain roll to attack on?
I think the easy answer here is that if a character is not in a grapple, he's playing like usual with Terrain rolls to keep footing and the like. While he's in a grapple, though, we have to think about whether he is really moving around all that much to require one. I know we've dropped the "move half MOV rating each round" description in lieu of a more abstract combat environment, but the idea that you're moving around is still present in requiring Terrain rolls each turn. Is this necessarily true for two fighters in a grapple? Certainly not if they're on the ground already.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:12 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
I don't understand the underlined part, though. What does "..he needs the victim locked his stamina refreshes for unconsciousness" mean? Do you mean after CPs refresh X number of times, he falls unconscious, where X equals his stamina? I prefer counters over lots of rolls, but I'm not sure this is necessary. If I didn't close the windpipe this exchange, I will have a greater chance next time already because of the Shock inflicted. Everything is being represented in the rules: Stamina for difficulty (or TN?) and wrestling proficiency (which I assume includes how not to get knocked out) by way of Combat Pool. This would also have the uncertainty you wanted since it's still based on dice rolling.
What I mean is -- as just pushing someone's head under water doesn't instantly drown him, pushing shut the windpipe doesn't instantly strangle a person out of conciousness. The victim should have some rounds/refreshes to resist, try to get the guy off him etc.

With squeezing shut the arteries, there is no pain, so, most likely the guy doesn't even realise what's done to him, and it's much quicker as well.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:24 pm 
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higgins wrote:
What I mean is -- as just pushing someone's head under water doesn't instantly drown him, pushing shut the windpipe doesn't instantly strangle a person out of consciousness.
The assumption here is that a round represents a specific amount of time. I was assuming we were going full cinematic, abstract, Ian-Plumb on this thing. The camera/limelight is just staying on the two wrestlers until something interesting happens: (1) he falls unconscious, (2) he breaks free.

higgins wrote:
The victim should have some rounds/refreshes to resist, try to get the guy off him etc.
Yeah, i think the questions/answers we are discussing here are:

1. Should it be possible for someone to be choked out in the same limelight/turn as when he was immobilized?

Yes. Comrades will not always be given the chance to rush to aid.

2. Should it be possible for someone to be choked out in the same exchange as when he was immobilized?

(a) No, because this doesn't give the player a chance to get free.
(b) No, because this doesn't give the player's comrades a chance to free him.
(c) Yes. Characters get knocked out in the same exchange they get hit on the head and fail their knock out rolls. Characters do have a chance to get free if their stamina and Combat Pool are high enough. Character's comrades will have a chance to free him if he survives the initial attempt and the storyteller switches the limelight to them or as in other situations they spend a Drama point to steal the limelight then.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:29 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
1. Should it be possible for someone to be choked out in the same limelight/turn as when he was immobilized?
My answers:
- windpipe squeeze: no
- drowning: no
- arterial squeeze: yes (painless + special skills needed)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:32 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
1. Should it be possible for someone to be choked out in the same limelight/turn as when he was immobilized?
My answers:
- windpipe squeeze: no
- drowning: no
- arterial squeeze: yes (painless + special skills needed)

Really? Are you reading this correctly - it says Limelight. If it's a fight between just a PC and an NPC, your opinion would mean he would NEVER fall asleep or in any situation, a limelight of 30+ refreshes wouldn't be enough.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:35 pm 
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Yes, I'm reading this wrong, I thought you meant refreshes.

Meaning, I'd be okay with a lock ending with immediate unconsciousness only in case of arterial choke, other two would need a couple of refreshes to take effect... whether during that time limelight moves or not, is a different matter entirely.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:44 pm 
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higgins wrote:
...other two would need a couple of refreshes to take effect... whether during that time limelight moves or not, is a different matter entirely.
How many refreshes? 1, 2? How do we decide when they don't represent any specific amount of time?

I think my aversion to this is having another status stacked onto this part of combat.

1. Grappling
2. Grappling and immobilized.
3. Grappling and immobilized and being strangled.
4. Grappling and immobilized and being strangled - refresh 2.
5. Grappling and immobilized and being strangled - refresh 3.
Etc

This reminds me too much of the D&D 3.5 grapple hole that you went down and up in. It's messy and really not fun. What I'm suggesting is:

I. Grappling
...a. Attempting a Lock.
...b. Yes! Attempting a Strangle.
...c. No! Drats... back to I.

I. Grappling
...a. Attempting a Lock
...b. Yes! Attempting a Strangle
...c. Yes! Opponent is dispatched.

Is it so crazy/unfair for a character to be knocked out in one exchange? Well, when it took several rolls already for him to get immobilized and then strangled, no.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:21 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Is it so crazy/unfair for a character to be knocked out in one exchange? Well, when it took several rolls already for him to get immobilized and then strangled, no.


This will always depend on whether it is the PC or an NPC being so dispatched.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:58 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
How many refreshes? 1, 2? How do we decide when they don't represent any specific amount of time?
That's the reason I suggested Stamina. That's an abstract concept as well.

Seanachai wrote:
What I'm suggesting is:

I. Grappling
...a. Attempting a Lock.
...b. Yes! Attempting a Strangle.
...c. No! Drats... back to I.

I. Grappling
...a. Attempting a Lock
...b. Yes! Attempting a Strangle
...c. Yes! Opponent is dispatched.
Why would anyone attempt a Difficulty 4 neck-break is dispatching an opponent via strangling needs the same basic skill and asks for less successes?

Seanachai wrote:
Is it so crazy/unfair for a character to be knocked out in one exchange?
I'm with Ian here. The mechanic works both ways. As a player, when my character is strangled, I want that classic scene -- hitting the strangler over the head with something and breaking the hold. With this instant dispatch, it's just not possible.

Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
Also, how would this two guys with one gun/dagger rolling on the ground thing resolve?
Grabbing objects during any combat is a Terrain roll type of a thing, right? If we're in a grapple and I want to move us closer to something or farther from something, I might just use the Pressing terrain mechanic or something like it.
No, I meant the following situation:
- grappling is going on
- one guy has a gun, other does not
- both try to point the gun at the other
- they roll on the ground and gun goes off
- I see two possible results:
1) one of the grapplers gets a wound
2) bullet misses

The gun could be replaced with a dagger too, to model a bit more medieval situation.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:42 pm 
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I'm new to the forums, but I have started using Higgin's compiled EoS with my gaming group this month. I was already using house rules for TROS that were very similar to it. I had already halved attributes and combined it with NWoD skill checks so my players quickly adjusted to EoS. I am also using a NWoD homebrew of magic. But none of that's relevant. A couple days ago I introduced this style of grappling instead of the normal rules we had been using from tFoB. My beer-chugging powergamers broke it in the first ten minutes.

These are the fixes I came up with and why they are necessary:

Fix 1: Increase break/reverse TN to 7 or 8 when countering Throw and Lock, just as in tFoB.

Why: When grabbing offensively at TN6, all dice spent carry over as bonus dice at only 50% value to the next exchange. If the aggressor dedicates too few dice, his grab is easily blocked. If the aggressor dedicates any significant amount of dice, the defender may defend with 0 dice and impose an additional CP disadvantage on the next exchange on the aggressor equal to 50% of CP spent on the Grab, which is of course in addition to the disadvantages imposed by AC and Reach costs during this first exchange.

Code:
Example of current broken mechanic:

Bob the Wrestler has 18 CP. Chris the Longswordsman has 10 CP. Bob pays AC 2 and Reach 3 and grabs Chris for 10 dice. Chris defends with 0. Bob on average gains 5 MoS and thus 5 bonus dice on Exchange 2. On exchange 2, Bob throws for his remaining (3 + 5 = 8) dice. Chris attempts to break with 10 dice, usually winning, twisting in Bob's HILARIOUSLY NOOB THROW and slipping out unharmed.

Bob the Wrestler has 18 CP. Chris the Longswordsman has 10 CP. Bob learns his lesson and tries to game the system back. He pays AC 2 and Reach 3 and garbs Chris for 4 dice. Chris parries with his longsword for 8 dice, winning on average by MOS 2. Mos 2 + 2 STR + 2 Weapon = 6 damage. Reduced by Toughness 2, Bob suffers a level 4 wound to his hand and loses most of his dice advantage for exchange 2.


In gameplay, this completely removes all feeling of control from aggressive grabs. Unless the defender is retarded, he can defend against ANY grab executed in Exchange 1 of the round. Having to wait until exchange 2 to use an offensive grab relegates grabbing to the usefulness of Stop Short. No matter how the aggressor dedicates CP, he is at a major CP disadvantage to the defender that can only be overcome by having a MASSIVE CP advantage.

I do not think this is intentional. In real life, it is the GRAB that establishes advantage in a judo throw, not the throw itself. By the time you are being thrown, the best you can usually do is contort your body to lessen the impact or imbalance the thrower. That's why judo players spend most of a match circling and grabbing at each other.

I believe the proper reason players should be encouraged to save dice after the grab is because they don't know what's coming. If the opponent throws them or locks them, they should be at a disadvantage, but if the opponent stabs or strikes them, saved dice will give them a fair chance to defend. But either way, simply not being caught in a grab should be a priority!

As it stands, the defender WANTS to get caught in a grab.

I also had caused throws add the 1/2 CP penalty of prone before applying shock which persisted until a 2-success terrain roll or full evade succeeded, since going through the HERCULEAN task of throwing an opponent was not deemed "worth it" for 1-4 shock, which could be achieved in less time and with much less CP and AC cost to the aggressor by using Bind and Strike.

Fix 2: Parries versus unarmed deal (Total Successes+DR)/2 before stamina is applied, just as in tFoB.

Why: Parrying low-CP grabs with all available CP basically delivers an automatic level 5 wound, ending the combat via a defensive maneuver no less.

With Fix 1 in place, the problem is no longer massively fatal and most parries of grabs are lower MoS. But it is still not a realistic simulation of a parried swing. Why should a sissy MoS 1 punch that wouldn't even bruise a Stam 2 girl colliding with a haphazard Mos 3 sword parry mangle a man's hand exactly as much as an MoS 10 Karyuu Dragonpunch colliding with Miyamoto Musashi's MoS 12 sword parry? Shouldn't such a powerful punch met by such an expert parry result in more collision damage?

This fix will also increase the protection offered by armored gauntlets. Don't know if that makes it more realistic or not, but if armored gauntlets are supposed to act like hand-shields, then making them stronger shields is good from a game-play perspective.

Additionally, I found that (Total Successes+DR)/2 is faster and easier to calculate than MoS+DR because the defender does not have to stop and compare successes to start coming up with the damage. So this fix is both more realistic and less cumbersome.

Fix 3: Allow grabs to be used defensively at AC 2 as well.

Why: My players couldn't think of any way to game them when implemented. Disallowing offensive grapples and allowing defensive grapples would fix all of your problems even if you didn't impliment any of my other fixes.

Additionally, I varried the Grab AC based on Weapon Proficiency. Only open-hand had Grab 2/2 for offense and defense. Longsword had 3/3 and most other non-dual wielding proficiencies had 3/4. Dual wielders still had to drop a weapon to grab.

Fix 4: Go back to Seanachai's original method of adjucating Locks via Mos 1: Single arm 1/2 each refresh CP Mos 2: Both arms 1/2 CP each refresh MoS 3: Arms and head no CP at refresh

and

Make Throw equally attractive by subtracting 1/2 CP prone penalty to the immediate dice pool followed by a shock penalty equal to MoS. The prone penalty persists on refreshes until a full evade or Terrain roll/2 successes.

Why: The current iteration of these rules has these grappling maneuvers all wildly underpowered for their risk and cost in combat. Even with Fix 1 in place, rarely do grapples against two talented TroS players end with more than 2 or 3 MoS. Applying a couple points of shock isn't enough of a motivation to use grapple over a stab in the face. Grapple is a 2-maneuver battle of wits much less likely to succeed than a stab to the face. It already costs Grab AC 2 + Throw AC 1 or Trap AC 2 for a net AC cost alone of 3-4 in a round plus definite reach penalties. Such high risk should have equally higher rewards. Instead, you deal the same amount of shock that Bind and Strike does in one exchange with AC 0.

Also, for internal consistancy, throwing must have a tactical advantage over trapping. Trapping applies a CP penalty EVERY refresh and opens break maneuvers. By comparison, throwing applies a CP penalty for only one exchange and denies further grapple maneuvers unless you go to ground with them. There is no reason to throw unless it offers something different or superior to trapping in certain situations. I can only think of having throwing result in injury like it did in TRoS or apply a temporary CP penalty greater than that applied every round by trap.

Since I agree that killing people with throws is pretty unrealistic and I like Seanachai's take on it (one of my players coaches High School judo and was annoyed that he no longer had man-killing judo throws, though), I think this is the only other balancing option. Since with my fix, an MoS 1 throw deals slightly more net CP penalties than an MoS 1-2 trap for slightly less AC and an MoS 2 or 3 trap realistically requires the aggressor to drop his weapons and play non-murderously, there is always a clear benefit to choosing between the two.

If you wanted to balance it by having a throw do damage, you could cut away tFoB's horrible calculus by just dealing MoS+STR-2 armor-negating bludgeoning damage to a location on the Random ranged chart and add 1 damage if you go prone with the victim. This way against an equal-stamina opponent you must get 3 degrees of success to deal damage and resultant shock, but you at least gain the prone benefits for a turn. If this is done, an MoS 1 throw is less effective than an MoS 1 trap, but an MoS 3 throw or a throw from a strong-armed martial artist has the option of dealing armor penetrating damage better than a strike and still applies a 1/2 CP penalty due to proning.

Every maneuver is useful!

Fix 5: Strike doesn't half armor.

Why: This isn't actually a balancing problem. I just think that if the monk character can't punch through armor from a foot away, I don't see how grappling his opponent is going to open up new never-before-seen chinks.

Suggestion 1: Dice pools versus a static success target like the new snap maneuver made my players feel powerless on the defense. It allows the aggressor to perfectly calculate how many dice he needs in his pool to safely snap a target joint and then do it without resistance. Although this is probably the exact dynamic in actual snapping situations, it goes against the attack-defend-roll fairness my players are used to. You could still simulate it pretty well and with better bell-curve odds while protecting the spirit of the game by using a contested roll. But I don't think it's actually a broken mechanic, I just ended up using the old break rules out of preference.


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:08 pm 
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Hi, Puppet, and thanks a lot for the feedback. I haven't been active on the boards lately, so, these grapple rules here are largely outdated. I'll try to address your issues.

Puppet wrote:
Fix 1: Increase break/reverse TN to 7 or 8 when countering Throw and Lock, just as in tFoB.

Why: When grabbing offensively at TN6, all dice spent carry over as bonus dice at only 50% value to the next exchange.
Instead of grabber regaining dice, opponent now loses dice. As a result, grabber doesn't want to dish out as many dice as in your example and it costs defender to ignore him.

Puppet wrote:
going through the HERCULEAN task of throwing an opponent was not deemed "worth it" for 1-4 shock
Outdated as well. Thrown person loses half CP and is prone. In case of MoS3+ loses all CP.

Puppet wrote:
Why should a sissy MoS 1 punch that wouldn't even bruise a Stam 2 girl colliding with a haphazard Mos 3 sword parry mangle a man's hand exactly as much as an MoS 10 Karyuu Dragonpunch colliding with Miyamoto Musashi's MoS 12 sword parry? Shouldn't such a powerful punch met by such an expert parry result in more collision damage?
Sorry, I don't get it. If punch gets MoS1 (as in, beats parry with one success) the opponent is hit as his parry has failed. Can you quote me the rule or maneuver you think is broken? As I don't even get what you mean, it might be another outdated thing.

Puppet wrote:
Additionally, I found that (Total Successes+DR)/2 is faster and easier to calculate than MoS+DR because the defender does not have to stop and compare successes to start coming up with the damage. So this fix is both more realistic and less cumbersome.
If you don't compare successes, how do you know which character was successful?

Puppet wrote:
Fix 3: Allow grabs to be used defensively at AC 2 as well.
Grabs have always been defensive as well. Look at Seanachai's 2nd post in this thread. It's there.

Puppet wrote:
Why: My players couldn't think of any way to game them when implemented.
Can you elaborate? Defensive grab is a great option when disarmed. You don't suffer reach penalties as it's defensive, get to use TN6, not Evade TN7, unlike Evade keep initiative if successful and hit the opponent's CP (while disabling his weapon, as he most likely can't use it in grapple).

Puppet wrote:
Fix 4: Go back to Seanachai's original method of adjucating Locks via Mos 1: Single arm 1/2 each refresh CP Mos 2: Both arms 1/2 CP each refresh MoS 3: Arms and head no CP at refresh
Lock maneuver is removed. Current rules on Hold say: MoS1 means that opponent cannot use the limb, MoS2 means that in addition to disabled limb his CP is halved, and MoS3+ renders the opponent completely helpless (CP0, disarmed if you will) and he can't even attempt to break free. Snap for breaking limbs is a separate maneuver.

Puppet wrote:
There is no reason to throw unless it offers something different or superior to trapping in certain situations.
Yes, throw is best for throwing people off a moving cart, down a cliff, into a lava pit, on the spikes, etc. The whole maneuver is polar opposite of Hold, but person can be damaged with MoS + ST in case of hard surfaces.

Puppet wrote:
add 1 damage if you go prone with the victim
I like it! Added.

Puppet wrote:
Fix 5: Strike doesn't half armor.
I don't think we have that anymore.

Puppet wrote:
Suggestion 1: Dice pools versus a static success target like the new snap maneuver made my players feel powerless on the defense.
Yes, all Snaps are opposed rolls now with MoS and ST determining how bad it is (pretty much like regular damage).

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Puppet wrote:
Why should a sissy MoS 1 punch that wouldn't even bruise a Stam 2 girl colliding with a haphazard Mos 3 sword parry mangle a man's hand exactly as much as an MoS 10 Karyuu Dragonpunch colliding with Miyamoto Musashi's MoS 12 sword parry? Shouldn't such a powerful punch met by such an expert parry result in more collision damage?


higgins wrote:
Sorry, I don't get it. If punch gets MoS1 (as in, beats parry with one success) the opponent is hit as his parry has failed. Can you quote me the rule or maneuver you think is broken? As I don't even get what you mean, it might be another outdated thing.


Puppet means Successes rather than MoS. So if the attacker gains 1 Success or 10 Successes and the defender gains 3 and 12 Successes respectively, the same amount of damage is done to the defender's hand (for the failed attack being blocked by a weapon). Puppet is suggesting that the more committed the parry (the more Successes, not the greater the MoS) the more damage should be done to the hand.

Puppet wrote:
Additionally, I found that (Total Successes+DR)/2 is faster and easier to calculate than MoS+DR because the defender does not have to stop and compare successes to start coming up with the damage. So this fix is both more realistic and less cumbersome.


higgins wrote:
If you don't compare successes, how do you know which character was successful?


He's not suggesting that MoS doesn't need to be calculated -- he's suggesting that if damage is based on Successes rather than MoS then the player can calculate damage while the referee calculates MoS. In other words, as soon as the player rolls he knows damage. This results in faster resolution.

I like the idea of faster resolution but I don't like the idea of larger dice pool equaling more damage when the opponent's dice pool is just as large (and therefore MoS is small while Successes are large).

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:21 am 
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higgins wrote:
Instead of grabber regaining dice, opponent now loses dice. As a result, grabber doesn't want to dish out as many dice as in your example and it costs defender to ignore him.


Adding bonus dice or dealing shock has the same result. Assuming ATN and DTN are equal, the formulas for discovering the amount of dice dedicated to a grapple to result in a grapple or throw greater than 50% chance of success are:

G ≥ Cd

Ca ≥ .5G + A + Cd

Where
G= Dice dedicated to Grapple
Cd = Defender’s dice pool
Ca = Aggressor’s dice pool
A = Aggressor’s reach penalty and net activation costs of grab + throw or trap

The first formula models the need to avoid dedicating too few dice and being parried and having your hand chopped off, since 1 MoS on a parry deals a 1+DR wound to the hand. The second formula models the depreciating effect grapple has on the aggressor’s dice pool.

In order for Bob to have at least a 25% chance of throwing CP 10 Chris without damaging his hand, he would need 21 CP. He must dedicate at least 10 dice to grab, otherwise he has a less than 50% chance of not getting his hand chopped off. However, the more dice you dedicate to the grapple, the less chance you have of succeeding the throw, so 10 is always the best. Chris dedicates 0 dice and loses on average 5 dice from his pool. Bob’s 21 CP – 10 – 6 (from reach 3 + AC 2 grab + AC 1 throw) leaves him with exactly 5 dice left over. He throws 5 dice versus Chris’s 5 dice. If Bob makes the BEST decision in dedicating his dice, the chance 21 CP Bob has of successfully throwing 10 CP Chris is 25%.

As it is currently modeled, my players will never throw or break because it requires a massive CP advantage versus anyone, and doubly so versus armed opponents. I’d understand if you think this is a realistic simulation and we could just agree to disagree, but from a gameplay perspective all this does is relegate grappling to the shoebox.

It can be fixed by increasing the TN of defending against throws and traps to 8.

Ian correctly rebuts all other points that I still contest with Higgins disagrees. I think other disagreements are just misunderstand of my post, and Ian explained them well.

I agree with everything else Higgins says. I was mistaken about grappling not being allowed on the defense, and was unaware of a newer version of the rules. The new hold rules and throw rules are even better than what I suggested.

Is there somewhere on the internet I can see the new rules? I think they are much better than the original TROS rules.


Last edited by Puppet on Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:13 pm 
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Posts: 76
Hi all,

Quote:
Puppet Said:

G ≥ Cd

Ca ≥ .5G + A + Cd

Where
S= Dice dedicated to Grapple
Cd = Defender’s dice pool
Ca = Aggressor’s dice pool
A = Aggressor’s reach penalty and net activation costs of grab + throw or trap.


Am I correct in assuming that the S under Where should be a G.

I also agree that grapling is broken if you need a 2 to 1 ratio to have any realistic chance of succeeding.


Simon Burling


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:05 pm
Posts: 2035
Location: Estonia
Puppet wrote:
Why: When grabbing offensively at TN6, all dice spent carry over as bonus dice at only 50% value to the next exchange.
I don't get it. In a normal attack, none of the spent dice carry over to the next exchange, so, how is this only 50% a major problem?

Puppet wrote:
As it is currently modeled, my players will never throw or break because it requires a massive CP advantage versus anyone, and doubly so versus armed opponents.
So, you mean the two activation costs plus a reach penalty don't make throws viable immediately after a grab? Do I understand you correctly? If I do, does the defensive grab have the same problem in your opinion?

Puppet wrote:
The new hold rules and throw rules are even better than what I suggested.
Thanks!

Puppet wrote:
Is there somewhere on the internet I can see the new rules?
There isn't, sorry. I'll try to remember to PM you if there's any development in that regard, so, make sure you have the PM notifier checked, but don't hold your breath.

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