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 Post subject: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Quote:
In a Combat Scene:

Scene > Round > Turn/Limelight > Play/Refresh > Exchange


What do we want Fatigue to represent?
Fatigue is the strain a character suffers while engaged in prolonged physical activity.

How is Fatigue described narratively?
A character suffering from fatigue is short of breath, shaky, sweating, and generally appears tired.

What is the game-mechanic result of Fatigue?
Carrying over from TROS, characters should have a reduced Combat Pool. By analogy, most other pools should also suffer.

How does a character recover from Fatigue?
A healthy character should pretty much have recovered from fatigue by the next scene. In TROS combat characters were given a chance to reduce their fatigue rating by taking pauses in the bout to catch their breath.

What was undesirable about the old TROS fatigue?
Too much crunch. Fatigue was put as an "optional" rule, and many referees probably didn't use it because it meant more work, possibly robbing actions scenes from additional excitement.

My proposed mechanic introduces three new terms but removes the crunch from players of keeping track of exchanges and Fatigue points. The words in red are those I specifically would like feedback on.

EoS: Fatigue wrote:
Fatigue is the strain a character suffers while engaged in prolonged physical activity. A character suffering from fatigue is short of breath, shaky, sweating, and generally appears tired.

Whether in combat or out, characters in EOS can be described as Winded, Haggard, or Exhausted.

Winded: The character is breathing heavily and perspiring noticeably. The character suffers -2 penalty to all dice pools.

Haggard: The character is completely out of breath. His face is flushed and he has to blink to keep the sweat out of his eyes. The character suffers -4 to all dice pools.

Exhausted: The character can hardly remain standing. He has a difficult time keeping his eyes open, and he occasionally rasps for breath and looks ill. The character suffers -6 to all dice pools.

Combat won't be the only thing in the game that can produce these effects. Carrying out other strenuous activity, engaging in sorcery or being its victim, or even being exposed to some poison should have similar effects.

EoS: The Fatigue Test wrote:
The storyteller may call for a Fatigue Test and set an appropriate difficulty. The characters roll Stamina + Willpower (or Stamina + Strength?). Characters in armor should suffer from armor penalty for these rolls.

MOS0: The character doesn't suffer any additional fatigue.
MOF1-2: The character moves down to the next status.
MOF3-4: The character is immediately Exhausted.
MOF5+: The character faints.

A MOS in this test does not improve a character's condition. (Or should they?) An exceptional victory, however, may provide the character with a bonus to his next test.

In combat the storyteller calls for a Fatigue test at the beginning of a Round of all those who have engaged in strenuous activity - usually running and fighting. As the fight progresses the storyteller may raise the difficulty, so round 1 Difficulty 1, round 2 Difficulty 2, etc.

Outside combat the storyteller sets a Difficulty appropriate for the scene.

Blaine runs through the duke's mansion, chased by guards, looking to kill Gerrard. He's fought a number of men and is Winded. After he's run for a long while, the storyteller calls for a Fatigue test and now sets the difficulty at 2. Blaine fails and becomes Haggard. He can stop and try to catch his breath before facing Gerrard, but time is of the essence. . .


EoS: Recovering from Fatigue wrote:
A player may recover from Fatigue in a number of ways. Outside of combat the character will usually be fresh again at the start of a new scene if any considerable amount of time has passed. In a combat scene or another scene that requires the use of limelights, a player may spend his limelight describing his character catching his breath. This assumes that the character isn't engaged in any other physical activity.

After a long battle with an armored foe, Marten is Haggard and steps back to catch his breath. As his comrades are fighting off more of the evil knights, Marten spends his next limelight just recovering. He shouts encouraging words and looks around for enemy archers, but he doesn't engage in any physical activity. When it's his turn again, Marten is ready to fight once more.

While engaged in melee combat, a character may find time to catch a second wind while in a pause. For each refresh spent this way, the character recovers some, moving from Exhausted to Haggard or Haggard to Winded. They cannot fully recover, however, while still engaged in melee. Fighters then should always press the attack unless they themselves need to catch their breath.

Finally, whether in combat or not, a character may spend a Point to shake it off. The overwhelming motivation they have to see their dreams realized pushes them beyond their normal limits.

...Blaine sprints into Gerrard's room, slamming the door behind him so the guards can't interrupt his murder. At this point Blaine is Exhausted, panting heavily as he turns to face the man who slew his brother. He hasn't had time to recover from all the killing and running, but as he looks upon the man he hates most, Blaine spends a Point and shakes it off. New blood courses through him and he is invigorated.


Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:10 pm 
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I think it's pretty elegant as it removes a lot of crunch and bookkeeping compared to the old versions. Also, I like the idea of upping the base difficulty for obese/armoured people, not the dice penalties. I also like Stamina + Strength better.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:05 pm 
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higgins wrote:
I like the idea of upping the base difficulty for obese/armoured people, not the dice penalties.
Hmm... Again, this intuitively seems more like a "what you're bringing to the task" to me, which we've said is the realm of dice penalties. Raising Difficulty is a bigger change than reducing dice. It's also the difference between saying, "OK everybody make a Fatigue Check, Difficulty 2" and "OK everybody difficulty 2 - who has armor, you're difficulty 3 and you are difficulty 4". Armor penalty is something noted on the character sheet, so it's one less thing for the GM to handle.

higgins wrote:
I also like Stamina + Strength better.
Yeah, that makes more sense for what this is.

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"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


Last edited by Seanachai on Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:19 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
Again, this intuitively seems more like a "what you're bringing to the task" to me, which we've said is the realm of dice penalties.
Again a fair point. It would give an extra use for armour penalties as well. I support this.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:32 pm 
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I have said time and time again that I am more of a principle than a mechanics man, so I’m going to comment mostly on principles:

1) Fatigue not carrying over from scene to scene: Absolutely. I think we can safely ignore the rare instance of two action-packed scenes taking place back to back for the sake of simplicity.

2) Fatigue Attributes: I like Stamina + Willpower better than Stamina + Strength for the simple and entirely meta-game reason that it, too, encourages players to diversify their warrior character’s Attributes. And in-game I think that Willpower has an endurance-aspect, while I don’t exactly see this aspect with Strength.

3) Fatigue testing: I prefer that the best possible result of a fatigue test is that none is accumulated; I don’t care for even a bonus on the next test. It makes no sense that the character becomes rested through strenuous activity, and it also does not support the difficult decision-making we want for EoS: Either you pause to catch your breath, or you charge in winded.
That said, I can even see myself advocating a rule where every passed test gives you a cumulative penalty on the next one, until one is finally failed. Though this is probably more realism than is needed.
The again, something like that may be made into an optional rule: If the referee finds that the characters are already winded (a day of forced marching, or very recent strenuous activity), he might choss to penalize all fatigue rolls.

4) Armour: Armour penalties should definitely figure hugely in the difficulty of fatigue tests. Not only is it (I think) realistic, but more importantly it again entails tough decisions for the player: You want superior protection? Then you have to accept fatigue.

5) Dice pool penalties: In applying one and the same fatigue penalty to all rolls for physical activities I’d like to ask whether we expect CPs and Attribute + Skill pools to be in the same range. If so, great; if not….

6)
Seanachai wrote:
Finally, whether in combat or not, a character may spend a Point to shake it off.

I would like to allow this only in situations where one or more of the player’s PAs applies. I intend this as a small (and in this case easily justified) safeguard against players using their Drama-ressource as combat-boost instead of as creative story-ressource. At least in cases where no PA is invlved, I’d like to close the former avenue for them.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:06 am 
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Grettir wrote:
6)
Seanachai wrote:
Finally, whether in combat or not, a character may spend a Point to shake it off.

I would like to allow this only in situations where one or more of the player’s PAs applies. I intend this as a small (and in this case easily justified) safeguard against players using their Drama-ressource as combat-boost instead of as creative story-ressource. At least in cases where no PA is invlved, I’d like to close the former avenue for them.
As this requires rolls, I think Fatigue would fall under PA points cannot be used for automatic success in combat rule.

However, if Pain can be ignored (or lessened) via spending PAs, indeed, why not Fatigue?

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:12 pm 
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higgins wrote:
As this requires rolls, I think Fatigue would fall under PA points cannot be used for automatic success in combat rule...However, if Pain can be ignored (or lessened) via spending PAs, indeed, why not Fatigue?
You're not spending a Point in lieu of rolling dice but to remove the effects afterwards - so yeah, kind of like Miraculous Survival. We still need to start that Point Expenditure thread, but what I think is that when it comes down to it, the use of Points will be the biggest house ruled area of the game. . . I keep thinking back to the creative uses of Willpower points that my nWOD storyteller used.

The relationship between Points and Fatigue then...

...1. Players spend Point to "skip" a Test.
...2. Players spend Point to shake off (some/all) Fatigue.
...3. Players spend Point to ignore Fatigue for a limelight/scene/etc

On top of these options is Michael's suggestion that Points can only be spent on scenes involving PAs. Two thoughts on this: First, if they're in deadly combat, someone's PA is probably firing. Second, we haven't discussed this limitation on other Point use, so I think it would be counter-inuitiative to put it on this one. I share Michael's concern of the growing mechanical power of Points instead of what we really want which is narrative uses. My solution was to keep Drama, but we can come up with other ideas in the Point Expenditure thread soon to come.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:21 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
5) Dice pool penalties: In applying one and the same fatigue penalty to all rolls for physical activities I’d like to ask whether we expect CPs and Attribute + Skill pools to be in the same range. If so, great; if not….
Yes, a fatigue penalty of -2 through -6 (or whatever we agree on) would certainly have a greater impact on Attribute + Attribute (max 10) than Combat Pool which is Agility + Wits + Proficiency (no max?).

I'm not sure this is a problem. If the storyteller doesn't want the player characters to be going into a chat with the king at a -6 Fatigue penaty, then the characters should be given the chance to rest up or spend a Point. When the story slows down, characters are out of breath and mechanically they're going to feel spent. This makes avoiding a follow up battle by hiding or talking much more attractive.

If we are concerned, however, we have options.

Options?

1. Fatigue penalty only applies to pools for combat, sorcery, or other strenuous physical activities. Social and mental rolls are unaffected.
2. A separate penalty for combat and non-combat scenes.
3. Fatigue penalties only apply to combat pools.

Option 1 is unrealistic to me. I really want my players to know that if they have exhausted themselves, they're exhausted.

Option 2 is too clunky for me.

Option 3 is undesirable for me (as I mentioned above) but a compromise might be to say that storytellers have the option of just slapping a generic penalty on tests that would suffer from being out of breath. In other words, you're exhausted (-6 to CP), and while you're playing the next scene you're described as looking exhausted. If you try to do something that should be affected by that, it's the referee's discretion about whether to give you a 1- to -3. In still other words, like option 2 but without it being spelled out.

Thoughts?

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"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:40 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
1. Fatigue penalty only applies to pools for combat, sorcery, or other strenuous physical activities. Social and mental rolls are unaffected.
2. A separate penalty for combat and non-combat scenes.
3. Fatigue penalties only apply to combat pools.

I don't like option 3 at all. But what about marrying option 1 and 2? Social and mental rolls (and non-strenuous physical activities, for that matter) could get ahlf the fatigue penalty applied to strenuous physical activity.

Too clunky?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:45 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
Social and mental rolls (and non-strenuous physical activities, for that matter) could get ahlf the fatigue penalty applied to strenuous physical activity...Too clunky?

A little. Why don't we think a moment about where this would actually come into play? It's important to note that Fatigue is not just about simulating real-life, but adding narrative tension.

Quote:
After fighting for the better part of the evening, Blaine throws up the doors of the palace courtyard. A new scene begins as he must now....

Social tests while fatigued...

...convince the duke's daughter between gasps to escape with him.
...intimidate the duke's last guards to open the gates.
...haggle a better price with the noble who paid him to steal a relic.

Mental tests while fatigued...

...recall the layout of the palace or make an educated guess as to where the duke's daughter would be kept.
...notice that there's a sniper hidden in the bushes with a loaded crossbow.
...solve the mystery of Gerrard's last cryptic words so Blaine knows where he must go next.

Non-strenuous physical activities while fatigued...

...sneak past the duke's men-at-arms.
...pick the lock on the gate.
...hide quickly when he hears the duke's men coming.
In each of these scenarios Blaine's player should feel dramatic tension for one reason or another, but in which ones should Fatigue add to that?

I think the ones that DEFINITELY are affected by Fatigue are:

    Sneaking - He's breathing hard and not moving as fluidly as he normally does.
    Picking locks - His hands are shaking
    Intimidate - He's less scary when he's sweating to death

I think the ones that PROBABLY are affected by Fatigue are:

Convincing, Haggling - It's hard to be charming or persuasive when you're not finishing your sentences.

I think the ones that PROBABLY AREN'T affected - or affected little are:

    Recalling, Solving - He might be on an adrenaline high, but that might mean his mind is working faster. Remembering vital info is dramatic enough.
    Noticing - It might be hard to see something when you're about to faint...?

It's impossible to say how many situations might come up right after a fight where a character hasn't had time to recover. For EOS Alpha, then, we have two options:

Option 1: State that Fatigue penalties are on all pools and let referees not apply this rule when they see it as inappropriate.
Option 2: State that Fatigue penalties are on Combat, Missile, Sorcery Pools only and then in the section of "edge" (my word for dice penalties), mention the fatigue categories as examples of when to apply, thus leaving it completely up to the referee.

I like Option 2.

Quote:
GM: ...the duke's men cross their pole-axes. They don't look like they're going to let you out of the courtyard. Blaine stands in front of them, nearly exhausted.
Blaine: I draw my knives and say, "You better step aside boys. In fact, you might want to go see if I've left any of your friends alive back there..."
GM: Awesome, an Intimidate test. But give yourself a -3, you are panting heavily. If the guards decide to fight you, they're going to want to do it now before you've caught your breath.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:45 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
I like Option 2.

And I certainly can live with it. As long as the same penalty does not automatically apply to all actions, whether physical or mental or social, whether strenuous or not, I'm cool with that. Provided the mechanic to achieve this distinction makes some sense, I don't care about its details. :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:34 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
...Provided the mechanic to achieve this distinction makes some sense, I don't care about its details.
That mechanic is the storyteller's intuition. When in doubt, go with that! :-)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:17 am 
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If we put different penalties for combat scenes and non combat scenes, are we also going to have different Pain ratings for combat scenes and non combat scenes as well?

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:52 pm 
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higgins wrote:
If we put different penalties for combat scenes and non combat scenes, are we also going to have different Pain ratings for combat scenes and non combat scenes as well?
I think what we're saying is Shock, Pain, and Fatigue affect Combat Pools; other pools are only affected by GM-imposed penalties, one of which may correspond to one's fatigue rating or anything that really makes sense. For example, if a player was trying to lie about how easy a duel was, I might impose a strong penalty if he was dripping blood from a Severe wound.

I suggest that in the section on context bonuses and penalties (I call it Edge) we might mention what could be appropriate.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Fatigue
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:39 pm 
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I would still use one penalty... and...
- if pain reduces pool to 0 or less, action is not possible
- if there's some dice left, mental actions or very light activity would be possible

Not probably the most realistic, but it would be simple and straightforward.

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- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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