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 Post subject: Streamlining EOS Wound Tables
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:02 pm 
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The purpose of this thread is to discuss how the TROS Wound Tables may be simplified or at the very least streamlined for easier use in EOS. There are essentially two parts to look at: the organization, and the Wound descriptions.

TROS ORGANIZATION

Spoiler: show
First, the obvious: The sixteen (16!) pages of wound tables in TROS are a little clunky. I’m going to make some assumptions here. It seems safe to say that most of us enjoy what wound tables bring, which is a level of simmy detail and the pure fun of getting to read “what happens!” after a blow lands. If we decide to streamline the wound tables for EOS, I would want to make sure that remains.

The appendices in TROS core are separated into the different types of damage: Cutting, Piercing, and Bludgeoning. Then each part is further divided into around fifteen Zones. There’s a little unnecessary overlap immediately since the Zones represented both body location and method of the strike, whether it was a swing or a thrust. Next, each zone is divided so that a roll of 1d6 lands on a specific area, and finally a box is given for each Wound Level.

Example:
Jan declares a club swing to the arms which results in a level three wound. The storyteller flips to page 248 to check Bludgeoning Zone VII (Swing to Arms). He then has Jan roll 1d6. The result, a 3, means the blow lands on the forearm of the enemy, and the storyteller looks to see what is suffered.


TROS WOUNDS

Spoiler: show
Each box in the TROS Wound Table has four pieces of information: Blood Loss (BL), Shock, Pain, and some sort of flavor or description in “quotes” that might also note whether a Knockdown or Knockout test would be required and what, if any, penalties would apply.


EOS ORGANIZATION

How do we want players to “get there”? I have some points for discussion.

1) It should be a design goal that the largest division of the Wound Tables (Area/Zone) take only 1 page. With my additional suggestions, that means 4-5 pages only.

2) Zones are too cumbersome. In play, PCs never learned what the Zones were, so it was always me looking it up. There are Zones used in HEMA fighting manuals but they aren’t that complicated. For example, in traditional German longsword fencing there are the “Four Openings” (Vier Bloss). While there are nine possible ways to attack each of the openings, the areas that are affected can be simplified into four: (1) Upper Right, (2) Upper Left, (3) Lower Right, (4) Lower Left. Upper refers to “oberhalben der girtel” (Above the Belt), and Lower means Under the Belt. Left and right are from the attacker’s perspective. (See this page from a translated manual )

3) Tables could be organized by Area, Type of Damage, and then Wound Level/Location. Using the previous example, Jan’s attack is a swing to the arms (Upper Right; Bloss 1), so the storyteller looks at Page 1 and finds the bludgeoning table.

4) Is the d6 necessary? So Jan swings in at someone’s upper right side. How do we determine whether the wound lands on the forearm, hand, or something else? Two possibilities: The d6 determines or the Wound Level determines. If the d6 determines, the benefits are exciting uncertainty and possibly cool crunchy stuff like Gifts, Maneuvers, or Points that can be used to change the die. The downside to using a d6 is it means another die roll, which may feel cumbersome or arbitrary to someone. I could imagine a player is pretty upset his Level 4 wound landed on a hand instead of an arm. He wanted more blood!

Another possibility would be to use the Wound Level to determine the location as well as the severity of the wound. This is what I have been using for nameless NPCs. A Level 2 wound means the nameless minion is severely injured (half CP), and I can describe in whatever way sounds cool.
A Level 3 or 4 wound means the NPC is out of the fight. I don’t bother flipping to the chart here – I just describe or allow the player to describe a gruesome, near-lethal wound. The question I have yet to consider is whether to extend this so that even when important NPCs and PCs get hit, the Wound Level determines the location.

For example, the table might show that a Level 3 Wound to Upper Right (Bloss 1) means, perhaps, cracked ribs. This speeds things up a bit, I think, and removes the annoyance of the d6 having the final say on how damaging your Level 3 Wound was. This would, however, limit us to fewer types of wounds (essentially 5 per area). Another problem might occur when it comes to calculating Armor. A Level 3 Wound to the arms might have to be calculated differently than a Level 3 Wound to the shoulders or chest, depending on what kind of armor the person is wearing.

EOS WOUNDS

1) Blood Loss is going to be replaced by Wound Severity rating (see Pre-Alpha). Higgins has already suggested a conversation rate: 0-5 Insignificant, 6-10 Significant, 11-15 Severe, 16+ Massive.

2) Shock and Pain will most likely be left alone, although we need to discuss how “9-WP” is understood in EOS. “Withstanding Potency” (Higgins) is confusing EOS acronym, and I’ve always hated having to say, “The wound is Pain 9…but yeah, now subtract your WP, but on your sheet you still have to write 9.”

3) EOS is introducing the Impairment rule for higher-level wounds. There should be a concise notation for this that can be read about in a different section. For example, a Level 3 Bludgeoning Wound might read “Temporary Sprain”, which could then be looked up with all the rules about what that impairment looks like, how it heals or how it might become something worse.

4) I would like there to be room for those classic TROS descriptions and flavors. Like opening up a blood Fortune Cookie, it is so much fun to hurriedly find the right box on the table and then read to excited PCs, “Pelvis is destroyed with massive bleeding!” We should also decide whether we want to call for Knockdown/Knockout tests or just make a general rule for storytellers to follow so that there’s less clutter on the tables.

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 Post subject: Re: Streamlining EOS Wound Tables
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Being a bit pressed for time, I have as of now only given the "EoS Organisation" part of your post some thought, and I have to say I quite like your approach. I do however smell a rat here:
Seanachai wrote:
4) Is the d6 necessary? So Jan swings in at someone’s upper right side. How do we determine whether the wound lands on the forearm, hand, or something else?
(...)
Another possibility would be to use the Wound Level to determine the location as well as the severity of the wound. This is what I have been using for nameless NPCs. A Level 2 wound means the nameless minion is severely injured (half CP), and I can describe in whatever way sounds cool.
A Level 3 or 4 wound means the NPC is out of the fight. I don’t bother flipping to the chart here – I just describe or allow the player to describe a gruesome, near-lethal wound. The question I have yet to consider is whether to extend this so that even when important NPCs and PCs get hit, the Wound Level determines the location.

How do you envisage combining this approach with different armour on different locations within the target opening? This is exceedingly common, as e.g. in gambeson + mail for torso, uper arms and thighs, but nothing for knees, shins, feet, forearms and hands.

So: The severity of the wound determines hit location; check. The severity of the wound is greatly influenced by applicable armour; check. Applicable armour is determined by hit location; erm... :?

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 Post subject: Re: Streamlining EOS Wound Tables
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
How do you envisage combining this approach with different armour on different locations within the target opening?
You obviously haven't read all of my post. :D

Seanachai wrote:
This would, however, limit us to fewer types of wounds (essentially 5 per area). Another problem might occur when it comes to calculating Armor. A Level 3 Wound to the arms might have to be calculated differently than a Level 3 Wound to the shoulders or chest, depending on what kind of armor the person is wearing.
For nameless NPCs, I always just had a default Toughness depending on their station, so it didn't matter whether a glove had a level or two more AV than his arm. The PC rolled that many successes so that predetermined where the blow landed. But like I said, that was for "minions".

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 Post subject: Re: Streamlining EOS Wound Tables
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:38 am 
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Seanachai wrote:
You obviously haven't read all of my post. :D

Sorry – I shamelessly blame yesterday evening’s splitting headache for having missed this.

Personally, I’ve found flipping through the many pages of wound tables cumbersome, but not rolling the d6 not so. I am wondering whether it is really worth the effort coming up with a separate mechanic for determining hit locations for mooks when we do have to a have more complete one for named NPCs anyway – especially as the latter entails the “effort” of the roll of just one die.

Which, incidentally, might maybe be elevated from d6 to d10, provided we use the “four openings”-proposition. With it, the target area where exactly a blow might connect is larger and a bigger die probably called for to allow for more variety in the results.

What I would very much like to do away with completely, though, is the successful attack that is thwarted by the d6, as in the thrust passing harmlessly between the legs or through the flesh at the side of the torso. A successful attack has to be a successful attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Streamlining EOS Wound Tables
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:16 am 
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Grettir wrote:
Which, incidentally, might maybe be elevated from d6 to d10, provided we use the “four openings”-proposition. With it, the target area where exactly a blow might connect is larger and a bigger die probably called for to allow for more variety in the results.
It would be nice to have only one type of die used in the game. Rolling a die at all means another "beat" before the outcome can be described, and it's another piece of information the ST has to process. But simplifying the Wound Tables might mean we have to keep something so that not every Level 3 Wound is the same.

If we start to work on on this and find that (a) d10 means too many boxes; (b) we keep lumping boxes into groups of two (on a 1-2, this place; on a 3-4, this place), then we might have to look at making the d6 work. I really do think moving from 15 Zones to 4 is the way to go, but the only thing I'm really married to is getting rid of roman numeral zones that don't add anything.

Grettir wrote:
What I would very much like to do away with completely, though, is the successful attack that is thwarted by the d6, as in the thrust passing harmlessly between the legs or through the flesh at the side of the torso. A successful attack has to be a successful attack.
Agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Streamlining EOS Wound Tables
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:28 pm 
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So, basically, the problem isn't that we can't cut down the tables, but that we want to keep the fortune cookie.

I could totally live with just 5 different Shock/Pain/Bleeding value combos per Zone -- these are just numbers after all. However, I DO want more than 5 "fortune cookie" descriptions per Zone.

Seanachai wrote:
“Withstanding Potency” (Higgins) is confusing EOS acronym
To clarify, that's actually a BACKronym. I couldn't use the new Willpower in the old tables, as the scaling of new attributes is different. In the new tables, we'd use Willpower again, and we'd adjust the full pain accordingly.

Seanachai wrote:
I’ve always hated having to say, “The wound is Pain 9…but yeah, now subtract your WP, but on your sheet you still have to write 9.”
That's the very reason I introduced two pain boxes on EoS sheet. Full pain and effective pain. Now you say: “The full pain of the wound is 9… now subtract your WP, and you get the effective pain. You use the latter for penalties, full pain is for healing only.”

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