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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:59 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
When it was said that EoS now feels like nWoD with combat manoeuvres and SAs tacked on, that was literal. In other words, when Higgins and Seanachai were looking for a way to accomplish something in EoS they turned to nWoD first and based their mechanic on how that game handles it.
I don't deny the similarities, but this statement is unfair. The SOLE purpose of scaling down was to achieve the same success-scale all over the board. I would just not DO that basic success requires 1 success in combat, 2 successes in case of opposed skill rolls and 3 successes in case of regular skill rolls. Doing things like that would shove one of the main goals -- the unity of the gaming system -- right down the drain. That issue was the main ballast that held back the progress.

The only other nWoD-like prominent detail is almost purely related to nomenclature -- preferring attribute combinations to derived attributes. Both have their merits -- derived attributes are clearly defined and can be easily accessed from the sheet. In other words Knockdown is Knowdown. Attribute combinations are more flexible as they allow mixing these tests up with skills. In other words being pushed might be resisted Strength+Stamina as well as Strength+Strongman skill (and Heavy Guy skill specialisation).

All other mechanics (such as attribute+skill rolls, etc) were discussed BEFORE this suggestion AND agreed upon as good design by the MAJORITY.

pbj44 wrote:
Grettir wrote:
so I guess I will from now remain silent in the design threads of this particular incarnation of a successor to TRoS as well.
Count me in on the boycott!
I just can't believe what I'm reading. :shock: What, are we on the kids playground here?

If anyone has a better alternative to scaling down, let's hear it!

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:22 pm 
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higgins wrote:
It would just not DO that basic success requires 1 success in combat, 2 successes in case of opposed skill rolls and 3 successes in case of regular skill rolls.

And that’s just not universally true. For me, the granular stepping of scaling down is infinitely worse than requiring different numbers of successes for different areas. I know that it works for nWoD and that it works for many people, but it sure doesn’t work for me. And I also know that, a year or so ago, I thought that scaling down had merit – but back then I only saw what problems it resolved and completely overlooked the granularity issue (Have I mentioned that I’m no mechanics guy? :lol: ).

So I certainly don’t want you to desist from your design, I just think that it is much preferable for you (and myself, sparing me effort) that I don’t burden you with my wishes for the game, as I am never ever going to play a game with a fair degree of Simmy portion to it that has such a granular stepping anyhow – and so my wishes are immaterial.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:22 pm 
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So, in essence you're demanding +1 on attribute ranges or you take off? :)

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
When it was said that EoS now feels like nWoD with combat manoeuvres and SAs tacked on, that was literal. In other words, when Higgins and Seanachai were looking for a way to accomplish something in EoS they turned to nWoD first and based their mechanic on how that game handles it.


higgins wrote:
I don't deny the similarities, but this statement is unfair.


I'm not saying you've used nWoD for mechanics, I'm saying that you've used nWoD for design philosophy, for its approach to handling mechanics. Thus the game as presented feels similar to nWoD to me.

And, just to make extra certain that this is absolutely clear I'll keep saying it -- I have no problem with that. It is a good idea for a successor incarnation of TRoS.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:58 pm 
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Higgins, I don't think anyone is demanding that you do anything. Make the game that you will be happy with. I do know for a fact that a number of members are at this point at work on their own vision of EoS(some collaborating), so you should follow your muse as well. I think there is room for different versions.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:22 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
Grettir wrote:
so I guess I will from now remain silent in the design threads of this particular incarnation of a successor to TRoS as well.
pbj44 wrote:
Count me in on the boycott!

Well, honestly, I hope this isn't perceived as a boycott. I think that higgins and Seanachai are driving a particular incarnation of a successor game of TRoS into a direction that is mechanically sound - I just can't see myself ever playing the kind of game that is emerging. And as I won't, I think this particular design is better off without trying to make allowance for my preferences and compromising with them. My contributions would now only be so much dead weight around the design's process, and I don't want that.


Michael you are a kind man. I think that one of the big turn-offs for me, (beyond the game that was emerging), was how much of a battle it was to get anything changed once Higgin's White Paper was introduced. Ideas and suggestions, were on the other hand all too easily dismissed. A number of us got pretty discouraged with the "This is my vision. You are going to have to grind me down to make your change." way in which the creative process was conducted. Frankly, it was exhausting and at times got ugly. I think that Higgins has a very clear vision of what he wants to create and that's fine. It certainly became clear to me at a certain point that my input was not important to the project, so I moved on as others did. I certainly endorse the idea of multiple projects being pursued on different threads.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:04 am 
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I've fooled with a makeshift successor myself for some time now, with the eventual intent to put a pdf or some such up here. Does anyone else have a draft of TROS/EoS/2.0 floating around?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:03 am 
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higgins wrote:
So, in essence you're demanding +1 on attribute ranges or you take off? :)

No, totally not.

Like I’ve said, a 1-6 range is the utmost compromise possible for me, and that only with considerable amounts of bellyache. Combined with the fact that in a design by committee I am naturally not going to have my way every other respect, and that this would necessarily add to my bellyaches, I really think that you and Sean and others who want to join in should go ahead with what you are doing. Like I said, I don’t consider it bad design, just design that’s not to my taste. Our views do diverge that much that, if I continued to participate, none of us would be happy: And why should we force this upon us?

Like Phil said, nobody is demanding that you or Sean do anything. But in any case, don’t count me "out". I will most certainly drop in now or again when I feel that I have an idea or some expertise (such as it is) to offer, but merely on a take it or leave it basis – and I won’t be miffed if you leave it.

pbj44 wrote:
I think that one of the big turn-offs for me, (beyond the game that was emerging), was how much of a battle it was to get anything changed once Higgin's White Paper was introduced.

You’re touching on something here. I feel that it was very good that higgins went tot he trouble of compiling the document (Thank you!), but I also think we should have gone over it section by section to come up with a revised edition oft he document that could then have served as a firm and largely unalterable basis for all further design. Several pages back in this thread, I tried to begin such a discussion of one section after the other, but before this progressed anywhere definite, a lot of discussing was going on on another front front, treating the document already as firmly established.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:56 am 
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Grettir wrote:
Like I said, I don’t consider it bad design, just design that’s not to my taste. Our views do diverge that much that, if I continued to participate, none of us would be happy: And why should we force this upon us?
I don't get this. If all we disagree on is the attribute ranges and some closely connected mechanics, why would you hold yourself back on the other aspects that could be later used as universal combat skeleton by Ian or you or whoever thinks that Attributes 1-10 and three different scaling of successes is the right design choice?

Grettir wrote:
I feel that it was very good that higgins went tot he trouble of compiling the document (Thank you!), but I also think we should have gone over it section by section to come up with a revised edition oft he document that could then have served as a firm and largely unalterable basis for all further design.
That was my initial goal, really, but none of this "general" type of feedback never came and it seemed insane to tell enthusiastic people to shut up in the other threads.

But in any case, is it "too late" now? The threads have mostly been on the subject of combat mechanics, round structure, etc... And I say they've been immensely beneficial. There's only a couple of threads that deal with the actual attribute ranges (Math Balance thread, etc).

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:03 am 
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KazianG wrote:
I've fooled with a makeshift successor myself for some time now, with the eventual intent to put a pdf or some such up here. Does anyone else have a draft of TROS/EoS/2.0 floating around?
Put up a Word document too... It will make the communal use much easier.

As for the drafts... I have still a bunch of changes to incorporate into mine (concise ranged combat, new round structure, add grapple rules and more...).

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:13 pm 
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KazianG wrote:
I've fooled with a makeshift successor myself for some time now, with the eventual intent to put a pdf or some such up here. Does anyone else have a draft of TROS/EoS/2.0 floating around?


I look forward to seeing your work!

I have one as well that a couple of members are working with me on. It will have the following features:

1) Classic Sword and Sorcery theme
2) D12 based
3) Attribute/Skill range of 1-8
4) Fixed Tn
5) Book will be full color
6) Great Sword and Sorcery artwork
7) PDF will be free, Hard Copy from Lulu at cost
8) Page count will be about the same as TroS

Work has progressed well with much of the needed text already completed. The book's structure will clearly imitate TroS. PDF delivery date should be around the end of August through early September, with Lulu ordering available in time for Christmas for those who are interested.

The Project's name is Blade of the Iron Throne.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:59 pm 
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higgins wrote:
But in any case, is it "too late" now?


From my point of view, yes. Since you seldom respond directly to my concerns I am reduced to participating in this fashion. If one of the qualities of leadership is the ability to build a sense of inclusiveness among the rank and file membership, then EoS has thus far failed the test. Some of the elements of leadership in an endeavor are the ability to be gracious to others, to find reasons to say yes instead of no, and to recognize the thoughts and contributions of others as important, even if not all together utilized in the project. Since I see none of these things happening, I don't see the project ever gelling into a book that will be declared the official site replacement for TroS. It will, at best, end up being one of 3-4 variants posted on this site. I am not trying to be mean or negative, only honest with you. I have no time for bitterness and do wish you well in pursuing your vision.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 4:52 pm 
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higgins wrote:
But in any case, is it "too late" now? The threads have mostly been on the subject of combat mechanics, round structure, etc... And I say they've been immensely beneficial. There's only a couple of threads that deal with the actual attribute ranges (Math Balance thread, etc).
pbj44 wrote:
From my point of view, yes.

I’d say “yes”, too – certainly not out of spite or bitterness, but simply because I am realizing more and more that Ian had it right and that there really should be several successor games to TRoS, even though I initially didn’t like this idea. The community has done sterling work in coming up with communal principles to serve as foundations for all such successor games, but I feel that we are just now arriving at a point where manufacturing compromises for our differing opinions on what the mechanics should be would leech the juice from those ideas and geld them. I honestly think that the emerging systems will be better for not compromising all over the place, for not trying to accommodate everbody’s preferences.

But that is of course not to say that I can’t and won’t offer opinions, help and advice – but merely as opinions, and not as wishes that others have to bend over backwards to acommodate to at least some degree.

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Last edited by Grettir on Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:28 pm 
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Grettir wrote:
I’d say “yes”, too – certainly not out of spite or bitterness, but simply because I am realizing more and more that Ian had it right and that there really should be several successor games to TRoS, even though I initially didn’t like this idea. The community has done sterling work in coming up with communal principles to serve as foundations for all such successor games, but I feel that we are just now arriving at a point where manufacturing compromises for our differing opinions on what the mechanics should be would leech the juice from those ideas and geld them. I honestly think that the emerging systems will be better for not compromising all over the place, for not trying to accommodate everbody’s preferences.

But that is of course not to say that I can’t and won’t offer opinions, help and advice – but merely as opinions, and not as wishes that others have to bend over backwards to acommodate to at least some degree.


Well said my friend!

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Pre-Alfa Playtesting - Controversial Concepts
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:08 pm 
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I just got a little sad, I wont lie. I've enjoyed reading the development threads quite a bit.

In that case though, perhaps we should simply open up the threads to development of multiple versions. Id be very interested to see the directions that they take.

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