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 Post subject: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:22 am 
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Let's be honest: No RPG has an easy grappling system. However, in a realistic combat game like TROS/EOS, grapple is an absolute necessity. In the little experience I've had with HEMA sparring, I can tell you that 6/10 matches end in a grapple.

In this thread I'd like to discuss how TROS grappling worked and how EOS might simplify it. Here's my abbreviated form of the old TROS wrestling system. I'll then post my suggested revision.

If you want to get in the mood for this, check this out.

Introduction wrote:
In unarmed combat, warriors use grappling and wrestling techniques to achieve one of the following four goals:

  • To throw an opponent onto the ground (Throw)
  • To incapacitate an opponent (Trap)
  • To break an opponent’s bones (Break)
  • To get free of the clinch or hold before it’s too late (Break-Free/Reversal)

Grappling is handled in two phases: the clinch and the maneuvers.


PHASE ONE: THE CLINCH wrote:
    The attacker declares a grapple maneuver and allocates dice to the attack. If the opponent also wishes to grapple, the clinch is automatic. If the opponent does not wish to grapple, he may choose to defend with an evasion or parry. Either way, the opponent still allocates dice for defense and the contest is rolled.
      o Successful evasion: the combat continues normally.
      The winner keeps the MOS as bonus dice for the next exchange.
      o Successful parry: the parried limbs take damage as if they had been attacked.
      o Successful grapple attack: The attacker can carry his MOS over into the next exchange.

    Grappling can also be used defensively. The defender must drop any weapons or items larger than a dagger. The defender announces he is using grappling defensively and pays activation costs.
    o If unsuccessful, the defender suffers wounds as usual.
    o If successful, the defender has avoided the attack and now has the attacker in a clinch. He may take his MOS into the next exchange as bonus dice.


Let's pause right here for a moment. So far this seems pretty straightforward. However, I can't imagine a situation where I would drop my sword before being successful in a grapple. Usually you're going to grab your opponent's hands as they are on the hilt - they're usually more exposed if you're up close, and it prevents the guy from swinging around and just whacking you on the side. Last night I was asking my instructor about what happens when we both reach for each other at the same time. He showed me how the first guy to arm lock the other is usually the one who is going to win.

PHASE TWO: THE MANEUVERS wrote:

OFFENSIVE GRAPPLING MANEUVERS

The attacker with the initiative chooses to execute throwing, trapping, breaking, or striking maneuvers.

    Throw TN7
    Trap TN6
    Snap TN8 or TN6 (trapped)
    Strike ATN5 (body) or Weapon’s ATN

Throwing maneuvers: The current attacker declares his throw attack and may spend one CP to add an extra point of damage should the throw be successful. The defender can use the grappling maneuver to attempt a break-free or a reverse.
  • Success: Damage from a throw is calculated as a fall from 6’ (usually DR 3) plus the attacker’s MOS and the defender is prone.
  • Takedown: The attacker may decide to fall down with the thrown foe adding his weight to the fall and one extra point of damage to the defender. The fighting then switches to ground fighting.

Trapping maneuvers: These maneuvers attempt to prevent an adversary’s movement all at once or over time. The attacker chooses one or more of the following targets to trap: arm, torso, head, leg. Trapping these targets costs a compounding number of successes. E.g. trapping one arm requires 1 success, but both arms requires three. In this way holding down the entire body in a one -round attack would require 10 successes. When ground fighting, reduce the activation cost by 1.

  • If the attacker wins, figure out how many targets were trapped and how many bonus successes can be applied to the next exchange. If the defender wins, a break-free or reverse takes place.
  • Any successes gained over the required minimum for the chosen targets act as bonus dice for the next exchange.
  • In following exchanges additional targets can be acquired and trapped at the same compounding rates above. For example: trapping the left arm in the first exchange costs a success, trapping the right arm in the second exchange still costs 2 successes.

    Arm: No actions, attacks, or defenses that involve the trapped arm(s) are possible. CP is reduced by half if primary hand is trapped, by ¼ if off-hand, and ¾ if both hands are trapped.
    Torso: No movement from place to place is possible. -1/4 CP.
    Head: -1/2 CP; no movement is possible.
    Leg: -1/4 CP for one leg, -1/2 CP for both.
Oh my gosh - Way too much! Trapping seems like it might come into play sometimes, but can't this be simplified?

PHASE TWO: THE OFFENSIVE MANEUVERS, Cont wrote:
Snapping maneuvers: Either from the clinch or following a trap to the arm or head, the attacker may attempt to break a limb or even the neck of an adversary by twisting the joints of the limb or neck to cause damage to it.
  • The damage of a snap is ST + MOS. Use the bludgeoning tables against shoulders, elbows, wrists, knees, ankles, or neck.
  • Armor does not help the defender against snapping maneuvers.
  • If the technique is targeted on the head and neck area, one can choose to either choke a person into submission or attempt to break the neck.
o Neck-breaking: This requires an activation cost of 3 CP.
o Choking: The choker does generic damage equal to ST + MOS that round and every round thereafter without re-rolling until Pain drops the victim’s CP below zero. The victim then falls unconscious for 1d10×5 rounds. Maintaining the choke after the victim loses consciousness for another 2-3 minutes kills him.

Striking maneuvers: These involve attempting to hurt an opponent while he’s in the confines of a clinch and less able to defend himself.
  • Only small weapons, armored gloves, helmets or plain fisticuffs may be used. Striking with fists TN5
  • Damage = ½ ST + the DR + MOS.
  • AR is halved because it’s easier for the attacker to find gaps in the armor.
  • Shield bonuses do not apply.

Ground fighting: This takes place once both characters are on the ground, typically after one has been taken down.
  • Break free TNs increase by 1
  • Breaks must follow traps
  • Trapping activation costs are reduced by 1 CP die
  • No throws are possible
The striking maneuvers are a little awkward with the 1/2 ST change in the formula and half Armor Value. I'm also a little wary about all these activation costs. It's just a lot of chart-checking, you know?

PHASE TWO: DEFENSIVE GRAPPLING MANEUVERS wrote:

Defenders use the following TNs to break free of a grappling technique or to reverse the technique against their opponent.

  • Break Free: A successful break-free, like an evasion, causes a pause in combat. In a tie the aggressor retains the initiative but is unsuccessful in his technique.
  • Reversal: A warrior uses reversal to reverse the odds into his own favor.
o Activation cost: 2 CP
o In a success reversal, the initiative is passed to the defender along with the MOS for use in the next exchange.

Break-free or Reversal vs... (Normal/Ground Fighting)
... Clinch TN5/TN6
...Trap TN8/TN9
...Snap TN7/TN8
...Neck-Break TN6/TN7
...Choke TN7/TN8
...Throw TN8/TN9
...Strike TN6/TN6
...Strike (Weapon) TN8/TN8

Defenders may also elect to ignore what the attacker is doing and attack him with a striking maneuver. The defender must have a hand free. The attack follows the same rules as striking above. The original attacker still goes first and the defender has no defense against the attack.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:55 am 
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Here is my proposed EOS system for Grabbing and Wrestling. Wrestling is a poor word choice in English, I think, since it usually brings to mind two guys in spandex on the ground. The medieval German system of kampfringen is mostly about fighting unarmed or with a dagger while standing up and doing your darndest to knock the other guy down first. The manuals - like Sigmund Ringeck's "Knightly Arts of Combat" - are mostly about throws, joint locks, and strikes. There's not a lot of ground fighting in there. You know what is though? Wrestling in armor! I haven't read that part yet, so I might have some suggestions later on how to make some mechanical distinction.

First, a few assumptions:
Spoiler: show
  • Assumption 1. Unless you're terribly smaller than your opponent, grappling him suddenly is a good strategic move. As long as you have the initiative for a few exchanges and he's not a grappling master, you've probably got him dead to rights - especially if you can keep control of your weapon.
  • Assumption 2. Going from an armed bout to a grapple is going to start by grabbing the opponent's arms or hands. Reaching for anything else while your opponent is armed is pretty much suicide.
  • Assumption 3. Grabbing your opponent's hands or arms from any distance other than standing shoulder-to-shoulder with him is going to be difficult. The standard length penalties should definitely apply!
  • Assumption 4. The only reason you'd drop your weapon in a grapple is if it becomes a full-on wrestling match, meaning that you're getting thrown over and are falling on the ground. At this point you would be reaching for your dagger which is conveniently placed behind your belt.
  • Assumption 5. If you don't have a dagger or access to a weapon, you're not going to want to stay lying on the ground for too long - especially if there's a full battle going on around you. Wrestling matches will last too long unless you're fast enough to get him in a choke-hold or neck-break within the first or second exchange after hitting the ground.


Two combatants face each other. They have only one goal: to dispatch the other as fast as possible.

Grabbing wrote:
1. Two fighters are in Melee Combat with CPs based on their weapon proficiencies.
2. Every proficiency has a Grab Maneuver with activation cost 2.
3. On red or white, a player can execute the Grab Maneuver (TN6), suffering any Length Penalties and dropping a weapon/shield if necessary.
  • If the fighters were previously in a Wind-and-Bind, the reach penalty should probably be 0.
  • From Melee range, that would be the length of the opponent's weapon (-1, -2, -3), regardless of whether the Grab was declared as an attack or defense.
  • From Close the fighter is being really risky and should probably suffer -4.
4. A failed Grab might result in a limb being parried. In this case, the arm suffers the wound (MOS+DR). A failed Grab due to Evasion just results in the two combatants at Melee (Partial Evade) or Close (Full Evade) range and the bout continues as usual.
5. On a successful Grab, the winner gains the initiative and the MOS as bonus dice to the next exchange. The winner may then decide to begin wrestling.


Wrestling wrote:
Wrestling uses the Wrestling Proficiency and cannot be used with any weapons longer than small blades such as daggers and knives.

Wrestling will have the following unarmed maneuvers (and costs) at TN6: Grab (Off, Def; 2), Strike (Off.;0), Throw (Off.; 1), Lock (Off.;2), Snap (Off.,0), Choke (Off., 0), Reverse (Def.;2), Break (Def.;0), and two armed maneuvers which use the weapons' ATNs: Cut (0), Stab (0).

Grab (Off/Def; 2): Used to start a wrestling match. In a success grab, the initiative is passed to the defender along with the MOS for use in the next exchange.

Strike (Off; 0): The fighter punches or kicks his opponent (MOS+ST) on the head, torso, or arms. AR is halved.

Throw (Off; 1): The fighter throws his opponent over his hip or shoulder. The victim suffers Shock equal to the MOS.

Lock(Off.; 2): The fighter locks one of his opponent's limbs.
  • MOS1: Arm lock: No actions, attacks, or defenses that involve the trapped arm(s) are possible. CP is reduced by half.
  • MOS2: Double Arm Lock - No actions, attacks, or defenses that involve the trapped arm(s) are possible. CP is reduced by half. Or if on the ground Arm and leg lock - No actions, attacks, or defenses that involve the trapped arm(s) are possible. CP is reduced by half. Victim cannot stand up.
  • MOS3: Head lock CP is reduced by half; no movement is possible.

Snap (Off.;0): Following an arm or head lock, the attacker may attempt to snap a limb or even the neck of an adversary by twisting the joints of the limb or neck to cause damage to it. Damage is ST + MOS. Use the bludgeoning tables against shoulders, elbows, wrists, knees, ankles, or neck. Armor does not help against snapping. A Level 4 (or 5?) Wound means a snapped neck.

Choke (Off.; 0): Following a head lock, the attacker may attempt to choke his victim. The choker does generic damage equal to ST + MOS that round and every round thereafter without re-rolling until Pain drops the victim’s CP below zero. The victim then falls unconscious. Maintaining the choke after the victim loses consciousness for another 2-3 minutes kills him.

Reverse (Def.; 2): A warrior uses reversal to reverse the odds into his own favor. In a successful reversal, the initiative is passed to the defender along with the MOS for use in the next exchange.

Break (Def.; 0): A successful break-free, like an evasion, causes a pause in combat. In a tie the aggressor retains the initiative but is unsuccessful in his technique.

_________________
"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:48 am 
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Nothing to add here apart from the notion that wrestling someone consumes a bucketload of energy quickly. You might want to look at the implications for facing the next opponent, once you've dispatched someone through ground fighting.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Ian.Plumb wrote:
...wrestling someone consumes a bucketload of energy quickly.
True! Hopefully this can be addressed in a refined Fatigue mechanic.

As for the wrestling mod above, I would like feedback on the TNs of the maneuvers. Should some of them (Break-Frees?) have lower TNs closer to what was originally used?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:34 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
I can't imagine a situation where I would drop my sword before being successful in a grapple.
That wording always puzzled me as well. I'd just require one free hand for a Grab maneuver.

Seanachai wrote:
Oh my gosh - Way too much! Trapping seems like it might come into play sometimes, but can't this be simplified?
I hear ya! :)

Seanachai wrote:
First, a few assumptions
Great list!

Questions are directed to the underlined parts.

Seanachai wrote:
Grab (Off/Def; 2): Used to start a wrestling match. In a success grab, the initiative is passed to the defender along with the MOS for use in the next exchange.
TFOB grapple rules snowball big time. Isn't this following the same suit? OTOH, MoS should matter, I guess.

Seanachai wrote:
Strike (Off; 0): The fighter punches or kicks his opponent (MOS+ST) on the head, torso, or arms. AR is halved.
Because...?

Seanachai wrote:
Throw (Off; 1): The fighter throws his opponent over his hip or shoulder. The victim suffers Shock equal to the MOS.
This is excellent! I always hated how a fall or a mediocre punch would leave the character penalised for weeks (an actual wound).

Seanachai wrote:
Lock(Off.; 2): The fighter locks one of his opponent's limbs.
  • MOS1: Arm lock: No actions, attacks, or defenses that involve the trapped arm(s) are possible. CP is reduced by half.
  • MOS2: Double Arm Lock - No actions, attacks, or defenses that involve the trapped arm(s) are possible. CP is reduced by half. Or if on the ground Arm and leg lock - No actions, attacks, or defenses that involve the trapped arm(s) are possible. CP is reduced by half. Victim cannot stand up.
  • MOS3: Head lock CP is reduced by half; no movement is possible.
I find this technical and noncinematic. Perhaps we should replace this with the following two maneuvers:
- Immobilise. MoS just determines CP penalty (might be a random roll what was trapped).
- "Two guys and one weapon rolling on the ground with following options: disarm or kill"

Seanachai wrote:
Snap (Off.;0): Following an arm or head lock, the attacker may attempt to snap a limb or even the neck of an adversary by twisting the joints of the limb or neck to cause damage to it. Damage is ST + MOS. Use the bludgeoning tables against shoulders, elbows, wrists, knees, ankles, or neck. Armor does not help against snapping. A Level 4 (or 5?) Wound means a snapped neck.
Why not... Immobilise followed by Feat of Strength roll with a Difficulty of victim's Stamina?

Seanachai wrote:
Choke (Off.; 0): Following a head lock, the attacker may attempt to choke his victim. The choker does generic damage equal to ST + MOS that round and every round thereafter without re-rolling until Pain drops the victim’s CP below zero. The victim then falls unconscious. Maintaining the choke after the victim loses consciousness for another 2-3 minutes kills him.
Why not simply use similar rules with BL? Victim makes Stamina rolls, that get penalised until he rolls 0 successes and loses concioousness.

Seanachai wrote:
Reverse (Def.; 2): A warrior uses reversal to reverse the odds into his own favor. In a successful reversal, the initiative is passed to the defender along with the MOS for use in the next exchange.
Snowballing again?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:11 pm 
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higgins wrote:
TFOB grapple rules snowball big time. Isn't this following the same suit? OTOH, MoS should matter, I guess.
Grab is only used once to start the wrestling. Reversal is like Counter essentially, so, I don't think it's a problem for snowballing.

higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Strike (Off; 0): The fighter punches or kicks his opponent (MOS+ST) on the head, torso, or arms. AR is halved.
Because...?
It is a little clunky, I know - I hate using numbers that won't be just there on the character sheet. The original idea was that when you're wrestling with someone, you're punching them in vital areas - which is why you're probably grappling in the first place: to get a dagger in their armpit or other joint in armor. I might have some more suggestions after I'm done reading the manual on wrestling in armor.

higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
Throw (Off; 1): The fighter throws his opponent over his hip or shoulder. The victim suffers Shock equal to the MOS.
This is excellent! I always hated how a fall or a mediocre punch would leave the character penalised for weeks (an actual wound).
Yeah, and who wants to calculate a wound in the middle of a throw. The real damage is going to come when the attacker turns on his opponent who's flat on his back and had the wind knocked out of him!

higgins wrote:
I find this technical and noncinematic. Perhaps we should replace this with the following two maneuvers:
- Immobilise. MoS just determines CP penalty (might be a random roll what was trapped).
- "Two guys and one weapon rolling on the ground with following options: disarm or kill"
I like it. It helps keep the focus on strategy: You're either trying to stab him with a dagger up close or you're trying to immobilize him. I might still like the maneuver to be called Lock, but that's a discussion for later.

So if I roll Lock and succeed against his Break or Reversal, the MOS is a permanent penalty to his CP - like Pain? Or just Shock? We could say it's a conditional kind of Pain (lasts until you're released), but why complicate matters? After you've got the guy locked you're either going to try and break his arm/neck/etc or you're going to choke him out....I don't like random roll for location. I would rather it just be interpreted by how high the MOS was.

higgins wrote:
]Why not simply use similar rules with BL? Victim makes Stamina rolls, that get penalised until he rolls 0 successes and loses conciousness.
Yeah, or Resistance? Keeping track of successes choke tests is not fun. What if the Lock penalties are used against the check? I have Resistance pool of 6 usually, but you've got me in a really strong headlock (MOS3 or 4), so my Resistance roll is now only 4. Otherwise Feat of Strength MOS induces the penalties?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:54 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
The original idea was that when you're wrestling with someone, you're punching them in vital areas - which is why you're probably grappling in the first place: to get a dagger in their armpit or other joint in armor.
Thing is, if the "chink theory" doesn't work in regular combat, it won't work for grappling: viewtopic.php?p=8062#p8062

Seanachai wrote:
higgins wrote:
I find this technical and noncinematic. Perhaps we should replace this with the following two maneuvers:
- Immobilise. MoS just determines CP penalty (might be a random roll what was trapped).
- "Two guys and one weapon rolling on the ground with following options: disarm or kill"
I like it. It helps keep the focus on strategy: You're either trying to stab him with a dagger up close or you're trying to immobilize him.
Exactly. Now we just need the mechanics. :P

Seanachai wrote:
So if I roll Lock and succeed against his Break or Reversal, the MOS is a permanent penalty to his CP - like Pain? Or just Shock? We could say it's a conditional kind of Pain (lasts until you're released), but why complicate matters? After you've got the guy locked you're either going to try and break his arm/neck/etc or you're going to choke him out....
I don't see the difference between that and immobilisation. Both want to make opponent immobile. Success in both affects the CP.

Seanachai wrote:
I don't like random roll for location. I would rather it just be interpreted by how high the MOS was.
I thought of that but then we'd have like... 5 different ways to immobilise someone. I'd prefer if each MoS had several option which determine what limbs are exactly trapped. If that can be done without a roll in a table, I'm all for it.

Seanachai wrote:
Keeping track of successes choke tests is not fun.
There would be none. One would roll Resistance. If choke holds, then Resistance -1, then -2, etc, until failed roll makes him lose conciousness. Some other mechanic to determine possible damage to the wind pipe, tips here: viewtopic.php?p=4800#p4800

Seanachai wrote:
What if the Lock penalties are used against the check? I have Resistance pool of 6 usually, but you've got me in a really strong headlock (MOS3 or 4), so my Resistance roll is now only 4. Otherwise Feat of Strength MOS induces the penalties?
Sounds complicated. As I see it, choke is a choke and it runs by it's own mechanic. Lock/Immobilisation is there to reduce CP and making Breaks harder (choking is easier to "finish").

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:17 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Seanachai wrote:
What if the Lock penalties are used against the check? I have Resistance pool of 6 usually, but you've got me in a really strong headlock (MOS3 or 4), so my Resistance roll is now only 4. Otherwise Feat of Strength MOS induces the penalties?
Sounds complicated. As I see it, choke is a choke and it runs by it's own mechanic. Lock/Immobilisation is there to reduce CP and making Breaks harder (choking is easier to "finish").
Wow, I stink at math today. I meant that if I had 6 and you got a MOS2, I'm down to 4 on my Resistance check.

So choking or strangling someone is just a Feat of Strength contest. Perhaps using something like a cord or sheets gives bonus dice. And we're also saying that you can't try this until you have them immobilized?

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:05 pm 
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Just going on record that I'm following this. The direction this is going is looking good to me, and I don't have anything useful to add.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:27 am 
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So here's what we have so far.

Quote:
KAMPFRINGEN

In armed combat it is sometimes advantageous to use one's speed and strength to grapple an opponent. Warriors may attempt to subdue and immobilize their foe or they may wish to inflict pain by snapping joints or strangling them into unconsciousness. In EOS this is handed through a set of maneuvers in the Wrestling Proficiency.

Grabbing

Every proficiency has a Grab Maneuver with an activation cost of 2 and TN6. The Grab Maneuver requires one free hand. In this offensive or defensive maneuver the warrior attempts to grab his opponent's sword arm or hand to initiate a grapple. The warrior suffers any length penalties as usual unless he is currently in a Bind with his opponent.

A failed Grab might result in a limb being parried. In this case, the arm suffers the wound (MOS+DR). A failed Grab due to Evasion just results in the two combatants at Melee (Partial Evade) or Close (Full Evade) range and the bout continues as usual. On a successful Grab, the winner gains the initiative and the MOS as bonus dice to the next exchange. The winner may then decide to begin wrestling.

Wrestling

Wrestling uses the Wrestling Proficiency and cannot be used with any weapons longer than small blades such as daggers and knives. While wrestling the following maneuvers are available:

Offensive Maneuvers

    Grab (Cost 2): The warriors reaches out to grab his opponent's sword hand or arm in order to start a wrestling match. In a successful grab, the initiative is passed to the defender along with the MOS for use in the next exchange.
    Cut (Cost 0): The warrior uses his knife or other small blade to slash at his opponent. He uses the weapon's ATN.
    Stab (Cost 0): The warrior uses his knife or other small blade to stab at his opponent. He uses the weapon's ATN.
    Strike (Cost 0): The fighter punches or kicks his opponent (MOS+ST) on the head, torso, or arms.
    Throw (Cost 1): The fighter attempts to throw his opponent over his hip or shoulder to the ground. The victim suffers Shock equal to the MOS.
    Lock (Cost 2): The fighter tries to immobilize his opponent by locking the head, legs, or arms.The victim suffers Shock equal to the MOS. In addition, with a successful lock, the warrior may attempt a Feat of Strength (Strength + Stamina) during the exchange to bend and break his opponent's arm, leg, or neck. The difficulty of this test is the opponent's Stamina. A victory here results in a broken bone or severely sprained joint, which means 8 Pain. An exceptional success results in a broken neck and instant death. Alternatively, after a successful lock, the warrior may announce he is trying to choke or strange his opponent. This is also a Feat of Strength against a difficulty of Stamina with bonus dice awarded for any rope or other strangling tool he may have. The victim suffers MOS as Shock. If this drops his Combat Pool to 0, he falls unconscious. Continuing the choke or strangle for another minute results in the victim's death.

Defensive Maneuvers

Reverse (Cost 2): Attempts to reverse the momentum of the grapple to his favor. In a successful reversal, the initiative is passed to the defender along with the MOS as bonus dice in the next exchange.
Break (Cost 0): The warrior attempts to break free of the grapple. A successful break-free, like an evasion, causes a pause in combat. In a tie the aggressor retains the initiative but is unsuccessful in his technique.

Fatigue

Wrestling an opponent requires a constant expenditure of strength and energy. Storytellers are encouraged to call for frequent Fatigue tests at increasing difficulty.


Example:
Blaine (PC) - Combat Pool 12 - Strength 3, Stamina 3.
vs.
Gerrard (NPC) - Combat Pool 14 - Strength 4, Stamina 3.

GM: ...Blaine, you have successfully made it into Gerrard's bed chambers. The door here is of course locked.
Blaine: OK, I need to take this guy alive if I can or else we'll never know who really poisoned the countess. I want to pick the lock quietly.
GM: OK -- go ahead and roll Agility + Larceny, add your bonus from lock-picking...If you fail, the lock will still open, but it will be loud.
Blaine: Aw, dukes! That was a pretty horrible roll.
GM: It was. As the door cracks open you can see Gerrard in his night gown starting to raise from his bed.
Blaine: It's now or never! I rush in with my rapier to run him through!
Blaine throws Red, Gerrard throws White.
GM: Gerrard appears unarmed. The torches in his bedchamber set a strangely calm scene for your murder. What do you do?
Blaine: I thrust for his heart with 6 dice!
GM: He attempts to Grab your arm. He pays the activation cost and suffers -2 because your rapier is Medium. That leaves him with 10. He knows he has to grab you or else he has no chance. He rolls a 8-die Grab...4 successes.
Blaine rolls 2 successes.
GM: Second exchange - Gerrard has grabbed your outstretched arm; you are both now wrestling. He moves his feet into position and is attempting to throw you against the wall.
Blaine: He's probably going to try and run away - the coward!
GM: He now has 3 dice for this, having to spend one for the Throw...
Blaine: I have 6 dice left - I'll try to Reverse, so I'll spend 2 and roll 4.
Blaine rolls 1 success and Gerrard rolls 2 successes.
GM: Gerrard twists and throws you clumsily against the wall - you suffer 1 Shock next exchange. The grapple is effectively broken. Dice would refresh but Gerrard turns and runs, giving a shout for his guards.
Blaine: Ahh!

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"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:52 am 
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Quote:
Strangling, however, works a little differently. When somebody is strangled, three different approaches are possible: One can squeeze shut the windpipe, or the arteries in the neck, or both. Squeezing the windpipe means that no breath can be taken in, that the blood is not enriched with new oxygen and unconsciousness results from the brain being undersupplied with oxygen. Squeezing off the arteries achieves the same result, but the lack of oxygen in the brain is in this case not brought about by making breathing impossible, but by preventing any blood, and thus oxygen, reaching the brain.

Different approaches have different activation costs.
- Squeezing the windpipe AND the arteries is the default the method of strangling and has an activation cost of 0.
- Squeezing only the windpipe has an activation cost of 2.
- Squeezing only the arteries has an activation cost of 2.

If someone's arteries are squeezied off, he needs to make a Stamina roll vs TN6 at the next refresh to remain concious. The next refresh after that, that roll is made with -1, then with -2, etc.

If someone's windpipe is squeezied off, he needs to make a Toughness (Stamina+Strength) roll vs TN6 at the next refresh to remain concious. The next refresh after that, that roll is made with -1, then with -2, etc.

Loosening the strangler's grip "resets the counter".

So, why would anyone pay the activation costs for these specialised squeezes if paying no activation cost would gain the benefit of both (and thus also the quicker method)?

The answer is windpipe.

Squeezing off the windpipe can also have an additional, second result, one that can happen after just a few seconds of strangling and that can either be done on purpose or by accident: The windpipe can collapse under the strangling force. A collapsed windpipe will pass next to no breath, if any, and cannot be healed with pre-20th century medical technology. Somebody with a crushed windpipe will continue to suffocate even if the strangling hold is loosened. He will fall unconscious, suffer irrepairable brain damage, and die.

Collapsing a windpipe while strangling is quite common, and easily done; practically everybody has the strength to do this to somebody else.

So, squeezing off only the arteries, that lethal possibility is removed.

Squeezing off "just" the windpipe means that crushing it is the strangler's goal. An immediate Feat of Strength vs Toughness roll is made, with the ties favouring the strangler. After each refresh the strangler gets +1 to his Feat of Strength roll.

If both the windpipe AND the arteries are squeezed off, collapsing the windpipe can only be accidental. The Feat of Strength vs Toughness roll is made only once -- on the second refresh. Ties still favour the strangler whether he wants it or not.

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:17 am 
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That's a lot of gritty, morbid detail there, Higgins. Is this what you research on Saturday mornings? :D

Seriously though, Activation Costs means Maneuvers. So Strange becomes a maneuver? I also don't like the idea of player A rolling to strangle and player B rolling to stay conscious. That just means more rolling for the sake of rolling. If player B survives the initial exchange, he can try to break free in his weakened state or hope his comrades can rush over. What's the point of rolling to stay awake just so I can roll again? It's not about how long, it's about whether he can get free or not.

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"Remember it well, then... this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead, you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur, the King!' . . . For it is the doom of men that they forget."


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:53 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
That's a lot of gritty, morbid detail there, Higgins. Is this what you research on Saturday mornings? :D
Absolutely. Image

Seanachai wrote:
Seriously though, Activation Costs means Maneuvers. So Strange becomes a maneuver?
Actually I see both Strangle and "bend and break" as maneuvers. Locking is just a technique to lessen the opponents CP -- making strangling and "bend and break" easier to perform.

What's your proposed mechanic then? Just one roll and that decides whether the person is strangled?

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:27 pm 
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higgins wrote:
Actually I see both Strangle and "bend and break" as maneuvers. Locking is just a technique to lessen the opponents CP -- making strangling and "bend and break" easier to perform.
They're maneuvers that use Strength + Stamina and not the Combat Pool? Also, how does Locking make these easier if I'm rolling against either (a) Stamina value as difficulty, or (b) an opposed roll of their Stamina?


So...for Higgins it's:

Bob STRANGLES Tom; he pays activation cost.
Tom tries to BREAK FREE of Bob
Bob gets 3 successes
Tom is now being seriously strangled.
Tom rolls Stamina -3 at TN6
Tom miraculously stays awake
Bob maintains the strangle?
Tom rolls Stamina -4 at TN6
Tom fails and falls asleep

Is that right? Will this result in "empty" exchanges where no CP is being used? Is that even a problem?

I don't feel comfortable with what to do with Strangle/Choke yet. While I like the detail you've written up with Windpipe or Arteries, I don't think I want to put that in the wording of the maneuver. It would be how I would describe the outcome. If the player is morbid enough to know the difference, perhaps I would have some bonus or something.

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 Post subject: Re: EoS: Wrestling (Ringen)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:30 pm 
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Seanachai wrote:
They're maneuvers that use Strength + Stamina and not the Combat Pool? Also, how does Locking make these easier if I'm rolling against either (a) Stamina value as difficulty, or (b) an opposed roll of their Stamina?
Ugh, I've no idea how I missed that... You're right of course. The difficulties of the said actions should somehow be represented though.

Seanachai wrote:
Bob STRANGLES Tom; he pays activation cost.
Tom tries to BREAK FREE of Bob
Bob gets 3 successes
Tom is now being seriously strangled.
Tom rolls Stamina -3 at TN6
Tom miraculously stays awake
Bob maintains the strangle?
Tom rolls Stamina -4 at TN6
Tom fails and falls asleep

Is that right? Will this result in "empty" exchanges where no CP is being used? Is that even a problem?
How I'm seeing this is...

Lock
Strangling
Break Free attempt
Stamina roll
Break Free attempt
Stamina roll -1
Break Free attempt
Stamina roll -2

_________________
"Brothels are a much sounder investment than ships, I've found. Whores seldom sink, and when they are boarded by pirates, why, the pirates pay good coin like everyone else."
- Lord Petyr Baelish, A Game of Thrones


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