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 Post subject: Another Grappling System
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:27 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:47 am
Posts: 9
I reworked the grapple rules to better follow the spirit of EoS gameplay like Seanachai and Higgins intended. I built on what Seanachai had in his post in the Ringen thread. This system simplifies all the FoB rules and makes grappling much easier to do.

However, it introduces a novel mechanic that makes grappling incredibly more predictable, instead of OP/nerfed depending on exchange, luck, etc. Please read the grab rules carefully.

Grab (Offensive Maneuver) AC 0
Declare another Ringen Maneuver when initiating a grab.
Make an attack at ATN 7. Do not apply ranged penalties, but if the opponent has longer reach increase AC by 2. Margin of Success carries over as bonus dice for the next exchange. Success wins initiative.
A grapple may be defended against with a defensive maneuver, evasion, defensive grab, or offensive maneuver (but such a maneuver lands afterward unless initiative is bought as well).
A successful parry with a weapon deals MoS + DR / 2 damage to the grabbing hand.
If successful, a 'bonus exchange' begins. This exchange does not count towards the 2 exchanges per round, so never causes a refresh. Your opponent's remaining CP is divided by half and you execute your declared grapple maneuver. Ringen maneuvers can only be defended against using Ringen Maneuvers (but offensive Ringen maneuvers land afterward unless initiative is successfully bought).

Grab (Defensive Maneuver) AC 2
Declare another Ringen Maneuver when initiating a grab.
Make a defense at DTN 7. Do not apply ranged penalties, but if the opponent has longer reach increase AC by 2. Margin of Success carries over as bonus dice for the next exchange. Success wins initiative.
An unsuccessful grab deals damage to the targeted zone location or hand at the GM's choice.
If successful, a 'bonus exchange' begins. This exchange does not count towards the 2 exchanges per round, so never causes a refresh. Your opponent's remaining CP is divided by half and you execute your declared grapple maneuver. This maneuver can be defended against using Ringen Maneuvers (but offensive maneuvers land afterward unless initiative is successfully bought).

Throw (O. Ringen Maneuver) AC 0
Throw your opponent at ATN 6. Success renders the opponent Prone (CP halved after each refresh until not prone). The opponent is also Stunned (CP 0) for a number of rounds equal to MoS - Wits.
You may perform a sacrificial throw by going prone as well. In addition to causing Prone and Stunned, you deal damage equal to ST-2+MoS bludgeoning to any thrusting zone if Proficiency > 12, any thrusting zone besides head if Proficiency > 8, or a random thrusting zone as per the ranged chart if Proficiency < 8. This attack ignores armor.

Lock (O. Ringen Maneuver) AC 0
Restrain your opponent at ATN 6. If successful, restrain a number of limbs or the head equal to MoS. The opponent cannot use these limbs in any action, but suffers no CP penalty. Getting at least 3 successes reduces CP to 0 until grapple is ended but requires you to drop anything you are holding.

Snap (O. Ringen Maneuver) AC 0
Make an unarmed attack vs TN6 (TN5 if locking a relevant limb) to any shoulder, elbow, wrist, knee, ankle, or neck. If successful, ignore armor and deal ST+MoS damage.

Unarmed Strike (O. Ringen Maneuver) AC 0
Make an unarmed thrusting attack at TN 5 dealing ST-2+MoS bludgeoning damage.

Break (D. Ringen Maneuver) AC 0
Defend against any Ringen Maneuver at DTN 6. Success results in an end to grappling and a pause in combat.

Reverse (D. Ringen Maneuver) AC 2
Defend against any Ringen Maneuver at DTN 6. Success wins initiative and the grapple does not end. Margin of Success is gained as bonus dice to your next exchange. You must use an offensive Ringen Maneuver the next exchange.









The AC for grabs is 0 for any proficiency with grab as an option and at least 1 free hand. If you don't think Open Hand (Karate) and longsword should have the same grappling ability, you underestimate the amount of training that European knights put into grappling and don't realize how strike oriented karate is. If you enjoy these rules enough that you want a grapple-based proficiency less lame than wrestling, I created something called Gentle Way (Judo) for my game with the same stats as Karate except kick has AC 1, punch and kick ranges are reduced to short, Grab TN is reduced to 6, and there is no bonus to duck and weave (Judouka don't dodge like little girls!).

These are some effects of this system:

Opposite of FoB, low dice fighters can successfully grapple other low dice fighters.
The elimination of AC (which requires +2 dice) and the change to TN 7 (which requires 125% more dice) makes grab fairer at low levels where 2 dice would be deal-breaking but .5-1.0 dice would be fine and makes high level fights where standard deviation makes 2 dice almost irrelevant more balanced.

Opposite of FoB, as CP increases, grabs become slightly more difficult to represent how equivalent levels of skill make martial arts progressively more difficult to succeed with.

The biggest deciding factor in a successful grapple is CP advantage.
It is harder to incorrectly assign dice than the original system, making skill (or really, experience and math skills in this case...) less important. Simply having a higher CP and assigning all your dice to a grapple in exchange 1 will give you the best chance of success. Assigning less that your opponent's total CP may decrease your chance of success but the more dice you save, the more powerful your Ringen Maneuver will likely be.

Unlike FoB, the outcomes are more predictable based on the number of dice assigned.
TN 7 and especially TN 8 have big standard deviations when low dice pools are used. In the second exchange of a grapple, low dice pools are used. Because this system uses TN 6 for the follow-up exchanges instead of 7 and 8 in FoB, players will be better able to estimate their success of their grapples by just looking at the number of dice assigned.

Partial evasion is almost always worse than a parry maneuver.
Not sure if you agree about the realism here (though in a martial arts tournament, how often do you see partial evades? Just defensive maneuvers and full evades, right?). Anyway, even if you disagree with this, partial evasion (TN 7) vs grab (TN 7) is at least possible, even if defensive maneuvers are often more beneficial. Compare this to FoB where it was partial evasion (TN 7) vs grab (TN 5).

Defensive grabs vs. low-cp attacks are more likely than offensive grab, but defensive grabs vs. high-cp attacks (more than ~40% of total CP) are increasingly less effective than offensive grabs.
This both gives defensive grab a niche to keep parries etc viable and simulates both the increased difficulty of defending with this skill compared to attacking with it and the fact that martial artists just love when people open with a sissy punch.

In my system, any grab+ringen attempt has a 50% chance of at least a tie if the CP of defender is X lower than the attacker at the given attacker CP.

At the given CP advantage (or occassional disadvantage), the attacker has a 36-45% chance of getting at least 1 MoS on any grab+ringen combo, increasing from 36% as attacker CP increases and capping at 44.5% at 20 CP.

Unarmed and defender tries parry (DTN 6)
CP 1-5 → 1 lower
CP 6-10 → 2 lower
CP 11-15 → 3 lower
CP 16-20 → 4 lower

Unarmed and defender tries to grab (DTN 7)
CP 1-5 → 2 higher
CP 6-10 → 2 higher
CP 11-15 → 2 higher
CP 16-20 → 2 higher

Unarmed and defender tries to partial evade (DTN 7)

CP 1-5 → 0 lower
CP 6-10 → 0 lower
CP 11-15 → 0 lower
CP 16-20 → 0 lower

Armed with DTN 6 weapon and defender tries to parry
CP 1-5 → 3 lower
CP 6-10 → 4 lower
CP 11-15 → 5 lower
CP 16-20 → 6 lower

Armed with DTN 7 weapon and defender tries to parry
CP 1-5 → 2 lower
CP 6-10 → 2 lower
CP 11-15 → 2 lower
CP 16-20 → 2 lower

Armed with DTN 8 weapon and defender tries to parry
CP 1-5 → 1 lower)
CP 6-10 → 0 lower)
CP 11-15 → 1 higher)
CP 16-20 → 2 higher)

Armed and defender tries to partial evade (DTN 7)
CP 1-5 → 2 lower
CP 6-10 → 2 lower
CP 11-15 → 2 lower
CP 16-20 → 2 lower

Armed and defender tries to grab (DTN 7)
CP 1-5 → 0 lower
CP 6-10 → 0 lower
CP 11-15 → 0 lower
CP 16-20 → 0 lower

It is equally likely to get an MoS 1 success on a grab+ringen maneuver as it is to get an MoS 3 success on a punch. I think the rewards are equally balancing. Due the grapple being a two maneuver action, however, its MoS deviation is much smaller. So where a punch might get 1-6 successes usually, a ringen maneuver only gets 1-3. This is why MoS 3 results are so beneficial with throw and hold; they're as statistically likely as MoS 6 punches. Notice that strike and snap do not have the reduced curve, so they end up being noticeably less effective at dealing damage than punches except against armored foes,


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 Post subject: Re: Another Grappling System
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:43 pm
Posts: 2112
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Can we get a Submit manoeuvre in here -- which inflicts Pain to reduce CP so that the opponent cannot act effectively while grappled?

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Another Grappling System
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 2:47 am
Posts: 9
You could say that in addition to hold restraining 1 limb per success, it also deals 2xMoS pain until hold ends or unconsciousness occurs. Do this instead of having MoS 3 hold automatically renders the target helpless. 3xMoS pain makes it more effective than the other damaging ones, so I wouldn't go that far.


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