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 Post subject: Re: Why all the Hate?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:21 am 
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Location: Vienna, Austria, Europe
Jake Norwood wrote:
One could argue that the combat system is, in fact, gamist (because the focus on a player facing a challenge).


If somebody really were to argue so I would tell him that a good and rather realistic simulation, even one requireing tactical thought in his dicerolling from the player to have the character achieve an objective, is not in itself Gamist, but Simulationist. I would furthermore hold that Gamism is often more a matter of the ends towards which a player uses a rule than of the rule itself.

To me, the combat system is fine Simulationism; like almost any such mechanic, it can be abused for Gamist purposes.

Crow Caller wrote:
Thanks heaps for the clear and easy to understand defintions.


Take care, Crow Caller. Like Jake said, he was giving really, really lose definitions. They are of course right, but to really understand the model, there’s basically no way around reading the long and at times difficult essays on The Forge, pondering them carefully, and following them up in the threads.

Crow Caller wrote:
There's no denying that I was lured to TRoS for its Sim elements (the Combat and Skills), and like so many others was plesantly suprised by the Spiritual Attribute Section.


I have at several times heard it said that you get into TroS for the combat system and stay there for the Spiritual Attributes – which is a poignant way for saying that TRoS turns your Sim gaming towards more towards Nar gaming.

I know that’s what happened in my case. I picked the book up (in early 2003) for the great combat system it promised, and at first, I didn’t get Spiritual Attributes at all, approaching them from my traditional deep-immersion, strict-realism Simulationist bend. As I felt that the Spiritual Attributed somehow didn’t work well for me, I hunted around The Forge for explanations, and after lots and lots of reading finally understood them. The entire process introduced me to gaming theory and gave me for the very first time an acute awareness of what exactly I wanted from roleplaying, what exactly I didn’t want, and indeed a vocabulary to express all of this. TRoS propelled me on a wonderful journey of exploration (well, actually the journey was at first more confusing than wonderful and at times even off-putting and annoying) and led to a virtual second birth of my roleplaying hobby.

I’ll feel forever obliged to TRoS for doing this for me. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Why all the Hate?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:41 am 
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
I realise that Jake was just summarizing the various types of gaming, but honestly after reading those simple summaries I feel I have a far better understanding of what each is than from all the pages I poured over trying to discover what Nar/Sim/Game really is.

That said, I think that for me the sweatspot of gaming falls between Sim and Nar, and that everything that I hate about gaming is embedded firmly in Gamism.

Cheers!

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